Jack Johnson vs Joe Frazier

Lets be real here S, Ali spent 70% of the fight on the ropes.When he did elect to move Frazier was all at sea trying to reach him. I think Johnson's sense of anticipation meant that he didnt have to move very much.There are clips of him moving rapidly and with fluent grace in training.In actual combat he seems to have been able to parry and block incoming without too much trouble.

 

Let's let's be really real here. We have no footage of Johnson's opponents closing the distance to a target the way Frazier did. When he was still prime and focused he got there in a flash. Ali arguably had the greatest reflexes of any heavyweight, and certainly more evasive footwork, and got caught. Repeatedly. Quarry was quick and clever. Ellis and Mathis had quick, nimble feet. There is no precedent for Johnson containing the fighter we saw against those guys. If he's going to play catch and shoot, good luck. If he's going to set up camp in that 45 stance, good luck again. I just don't see it happening, even by accident.

 

Sluggers will not beat prime Johnson. Too good defensively and he was a monster fighter. Frazier has very little chance. His offense would be completely shut down. He can do nothing inside and would be eaten up outside.

 

Note that Mendoza no longer makes outlandish claims about Flynn and Moran doing well against Johnson. Both were well documented one sided beatdowns.

 

Mendoza is mental regarding Johnson. No one takes him seriously on that topic.

However, Flynn and Moran aren't even in the same galaxy as Frazier. And neither are Burns or McVea. There is no way on earth an objective eye can rationalize those comparisons when viewing footage.

 

Again you “stretch the truth”.

Johnson skill set dwarfs Fraziers and he has the absolute perfect skill set to shut Frazier down offensively. Yes Johnson was THAT great. No one in the hwt division since approaches his skills.

 

Who is stretching the truth here?

Johnson had a long leash stylewise given the caliber of opponents he faced. They all look like slobs on film. Brave slobs full of heart and tough as rented mules but almost bereft of skill by modern standards.

Still, Johnson was troubled by such lowlights as Marvin Hart and a positively decrepit O'Brien and even Jim Johnson during his prime years.

You can repeat that he was the most skilled heavy till your eyes roll back in your head but if Wlad Klitschko or Lewis or Bowe, or God forbid Ali claimed that lot as their toughest tests the collective knowledgeable boxing world would never stop laughing.

 

Watch him fight and look close at his skills. But then again you need to know how to fight and you obviously do not.

Frazier would be shut down completely by Johnson inside. Johnson would welcome him there.

Very few hwts had the skill level of Johnson and none had his skill set. Just an off the charts fighter to watch. Close to impenetrable defense. I could see an Ali or Louis giving him trouble but never an inside fighter.

 

You have no idea who I am or what I have done. So, sit down and shut up, old man.

Frazier launched his biggest attacks from the outside and midrange like Patterson. He closed distance better and faster than anyone since Patterson and anyone until Tyson.

And again, do not equate those rank amateurs that Johnson stifled with Joe Frazier, who was a trained and groomed amateur success, Gold Medalist, and who traded the number 1 and number 2 position in the world for 6 years with the Greatest who ever lived. That is what we call False Equivalency. Look it up.[/QUOTE]

 

Very, very few fighters standing across the ring from Frazier would mean Joe had," very little chance",
Foreman,Liston,Lewis,beat him imo and probably Tyson because of his speed and two handed power.
Frazier is a live dog in any other fight.imo

 

Yes they were.

 

Flynn and Moran aren't near the class of Frazier, Burns was too small for a real comparison .I'd suggest there isn't enough of McVey to make a definite summation though I doubt he would prove superior to Frazier in anything other than perhaps durability.

 

[/QUOTE]
The problem with anyone picking Johnson here is we don't know how he would cope with the work rate and intensity of Frazier's attack because, as far as is known, he never experienced it.
Would he be able to smother and render harmless the relentless,one could say almost frenzied ,onslaught that Joe mounted against Ali in FOTC? A ring rusty Ali had a night mare trying to do so and was out on his feet in the 11th round.
Ali's defence was based on reflex and movement, both were dulled in FOTC.
Johnson's defence was based on anticipation and the ability to parry and block punches before they landed,he was supreme at this, but he wasnt having to contain and deflect bunches of salvoes at a time.
Frazier at his best had the ability to throw his hook with power and accuracy all night , and his most priceless asset was he could fire it and reload instantly to repeat the process.Trying to smother such an attack would seem like trying to hold mercury in your hands for a fighter used to fielding a much more methodical and therefore predictable attack.
I do think the term rank amateurs is unduly harsh.
eg
Everett 40 fights
Burns 54
Gardner30
Flynn 67
Felix 41
Jeffords 52
Langford 56
Butler 39
Hart 32
Childs 54
Klondike 31
Ferguson 49
Whatever the quality of these men they were not rank amateurs!
Frazier himself only had 37 pro fights.

 

1. Foreman? He crushes Johnson like a bug.
2. Frazier's a slugger now? He was a very fast, active, elusive swarmer who pressured with one of the greatest punches of all time both upstairs and down.

Too good defensively? Better than Ali, Elis, Mathis or Quarry? Nahhhh

There's only a single HW in history who Frazier has very little chance against, and he fought them in 1973...

By what? Hugs? He'd pound Johnson's body on the inside.
No one can shut down a prime Frazier's offence completely. No one.

He'd pound Johnson around at all ranges. Inside, he rips his ribs apart with short hooks. Outside, he lands hooks upstairs like the ones that finished Quarry and Foster.
He'd also avoid most of Johnson's wide swings.

 

"Jim Johnson during his prime years" This is worthy of Mendoza ! Jack was 35 years old hadn't fought for over a year and a half and was fighting with a broken arm.Please dont descend to this?
O Brien ran away for 6 rounds and Johnson couldn't nail him, does that constitute having trouble? Who gave the fight to O Brien?
O Brien was on the way down yes, but described in Pollack's book as in really excellent condition and he was 31 years old .Decrepit?