Jack Johnson vs Luis Angel Firpo ''The Sparring Session''

Wasn't Holmes 50 when he fought Butterbean? 50 is a long way from 37.

While I agree Johnson wasn't in ideal shape, he looked good on the film for the first 10-15 rounds. In fact Johnson threw double the amount of punches he did in the Burns, Flynn or Jeffries fight vs Willard. For once his hands were rather active.

This is a case where the film proves Johnson wasn't out of shape. Remember, back in those days transportation as we know it was very limited and one had to crack a sweat to do life's mundane tasks.

The ending of the fight is also misunderstood. Most fans have only seen the KO punch. Few have seen Willard nearly drop Johnson with body shots in rounds prior to the KO punch.

 

I will try and explain this to you.
First Suzie's post ,why did you pull him up on his simple mistake of substituting Willard with Firpo?
It was obvious he was referring to Johnson's sparring with Firpo.
Johnson by the way was 45 not 44.
Are you borderline autistic?
I mean this seriously and without insult. I ask because one of the most noticeable characteristics of autism,can be a very literal way of looking at things, to the exclusion of all else,it makes a person appear very pedantic.
If that is indeed the case, it would explain many of your posts. I will refrain from questioning you on your grammar and phrasing in future .
Now to the Johnson Willard fight etc.
Johnson was undoubtedly past his best for the Willard fight, and 4 years roaming around the world , followed by a year in jail meant that his time had irretreivably come and gone.[that is what I meant when I said a year in jail did him no favours],the concept that he was still a real threat to the heavyweight crown is false.

Embarrassing the crude Firpo in sparring is one thing, facing a prime Dempsey when in your mid 40's is another.
If I was not objective on the subject of Johnson ,I would say he was still a great fighter and avoided by everyone, truth is his skills had eroded along with his stamina.He was a yesterday man.

The Willard fight,Willard trained with an intensity he never showed in later fights,he was brutal to his sparring partners and several times sessions had to be cancelled because of injuries to them.

Johnson spent a lot of time driving racing cars and swimming he did not try to whip himself into the shape needed to defeat such a big strong giant who was determined to take his title,overcomplacency and conceit were Johnson's downfall.
Johnson stayed at the Palace Hotel for the duration of the fight,Nat Fleischer was also a guest there, he reported later,"Johnson was arrogant and confident,but his carousing in France and Argentina, had softened him".

I don't think Johnson did as much in the 1st 10 rounds as you say,though he won them, he fought at his customarily leisurely pace,after the 10 th rd Johnson ,increased the pace and began to make concerted efforts to dominate the giant,for the next 10 rds Johnson hammered away at the cowboy ,but after over an hour of fighting Willard was still on his feet ,and Johnson was near exhaustion.
Willard outlasted Johnson,because Johnson was not in the shape needed to fight 45 rds,and Willard, at his best was a very durable fighter,indeed I doubt Johnson would have stopped him at any time in his career, though I think he would have outboxed him comfortably ,as he did in Havana for nearly 20rds.
I dont speak Portugese, so finding a link in Cuban papers for the weather is impossible but several newspapers have mentioned the temperature.
No matter at that stage of his career , Johnson would have lost if they had fought in December, imo.

 

And Butterbean was an obese 4 round tough man fighter,whereas Johnson was fighting a 6 foot 6 and a quarter 230lbs giant, trained to the minute ,over a scheduled 45rds distance, a man who would be the next Heavyweight Champion of the World.Slight difference I think.

 

Johnson looked a bit like James Toney looks like today when he fought Willard. Now Toney can go rounds but no one would call him "in shape". It's all experience and ability to relax and conserve energy in the ring.

Willard on the other hand was in the shape of his life.

 

Which further illustrates the point. A grossly out of shape 52 year old goes 10 rounds, which should shed some doubt on your statement that out of shape fighters cannot go 15+.

Muhammad Ali went 15 rounds several times while obviously well out of shape, and looked like he could have gone another 5 or 10 lame rounds too.

You say "he wasn't in ideal shape". That's right. He was visibly out of shape. The reason he threw so many punches was because he knew he wasn't in shape to go the 45 round distance, and he knew Willard could outlast him over a long fight.

Carrying flab is like carrying dead weight. He might be fit enough to carry that 20 pounds of extra flab for 26 rounds, but obviously he'd have more energy left if he'd not been carrying those 20 pounds.
Also, flab slows a man down and affects his movement.

No, it proves he was out of shape.

Irrelevant.
The relative fitness of the average man from then to the average man now is completely irrelevant to whether fat spare-tyre Johnson was out of shape.
The average man then couldn't have gone 26 rounds with Willard, so what ? Johnson could have been 100 times fitter than I've ever been in 1915, but he was still out of shape.
Besides, Johnson was known for driving his automobiles.

It's ridiculous to say Jack Johnson wasn't out of shape against Willard.
Just as it's ridiculous to say Muhammad Ali wasn't out of shape for the Jimmy Young fight.

 

Excellent objective post,his condition coupled with his 37 years were too much of an obstacle to surmount, everything was geared to a Willard victory, the timing of the Kansan's challenge and the 45 rd distance.
And dont you just get tired of hearing how Jimmy Young fought so well against a 230lbs Ali?

 

You mentioned experience and the ability to relax , very valid points,but could Toney go 26rds in Cuban heat , carrying the fight to a giant?

 

He always runs out of gas when he tries to carry the fight to anybody so probably not. Willard would also have even more of a size advantage over Toney than Jack Johnson. I'm positive that he could go 26 rounds though, he likely goes that and more in the gym every day.

Johnson did the best thing he could which was to try and take Willard out in the early stages of the fight because he had no chance of going 45 rounds in the shape he was in. He survived to the 26th round mostly with guile and partly due to Willard's lack of aggression.

 

True ,unfortunately for Johnson, Willard had a very good chin.

 

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Your post is quite hard to read in blue print.
The photo of Johnson ,gloves up over his face ,legs drawn up as if to avoid the hot canvas, is often used to try and show that Johnson took a dive,seconds after the photo was taken Johnson's arms came down and his legs relaxed into a stretched out position,the ko was legit .

 

Some older fighters tend to fight in spurts and use ring generalship to win. This is what Holmes and Foreman did as older fighter. That is what James Toney does now.

Johnson in this fight fought nothing like Holmes did vs. Butterbean. He let his hands go and was very active.

Perhaps, but Willard was slow and clumsy. If Jack wanted to play defense instead of going for the KO, I think he could have lasted longer.

Agreed, but if Johnson's ideal weight was 210 pounds, this is only 15 more. Johnson was 220 pounds for Moran, and had little trouble going 20. As I said before, the films show that Willard's body attack wore Johnson down, perhaps as much or more than Johnson's lack of being in ideal shape. Regarding the weights of the Johnson vs. Willard fight, I believe the weights vary a bit depending on the source.

 

In a thread about Johnson's win over Langford when Johnson's weight was discussed [ he was 185lbs for that fight, to Langford's 156lbs,you said Johnson was about his ideal weight for that fight. Now you postulate that Johnson's ideal weight was 210lbs .Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

 

Fulton did fight (and beat) Langford twice, putting Sam in the hospital after their first encounter a few years prior to Wills knocking him out.