Jack Johnson vs Muhammad Ali, 1910

And, after a week of reading, my opinion hasn't changed even a little.

Ali KO3 Johnson.

Johnson, who maybe took one or two punches a round (at most) in the slowest-paced rounds you'll ever see, gets hit hundreds of times to the head by a bigger, stronger, faster and far better boxer. He was used to slipping one roundhouse punch at a time and not expending much energy ... he certainly wasn't used to getting hit by four and five punch combinations by a guy who'd constantly move while hitting his his opponents with the jab.

He never saw anyone like Ali in his lifetime. And training for Jeffries wouldn't have prepared him for Ali.

Could Johnson even cut off a ring? (I've never seen him do it.) Could he do it against a guy moving and changing directions, while punching you hard five times in the face?

It's a white wash. Johnson gets battered like Cleveland Williams was.

There is no 20th round. Or 30th round. Or 45th round. Ali beats the living hell out of a guy (Johnson) who never had to take many head shots and clinched guys hard trying to avoid them. Ali would be hitting him while at a safe distance, and the slower Johnson who would by trying to catch the shots and, in the process, would get eaten alive.

It's Ali-Williams all over again.

Ali in three.

 

Why do you use selective information? It is well known there were multiple offers for Jack Johnson to fight Langford, McVey, and Jeannette for $30,000 or more.

Johnson could have had Sam McVey for $30,000 instead of Flynn

[url]http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19111230.2.27[/url]

Multiple news links can show other offers.

What would Ali's title reign look like if he skirted Frazier, Foreman, and Norton, but meet more Chuck Wepner types?

 

You are aware Ali used to do his roadwork in brogues, No?

He made a huge point of boasting about it, and how it gave him such strong legs, and indeed was the key to his " dancing "

 

Johnson never went 45 rounds in a fight. The longest fight he ever competed in and WON was 20 rounds.

The only fight he went over 20 rounds in, against Willard, saw Johnson knocked out.

There's no evidence Johnson would "get stronger" than Ali if the fight went over 20 rounds, because Johnson NEVER got stronger in the one fight he competed in that went over 20 rounds.

Of course, mythical match ups are by definition fantasy. But let's keep their skills in perspective here.

Training for Jim Jeffries wouldn't prepare you for a prime Ali. Ali would hit Johnson with more punches than he was ever hit with in one fight in his life. Ali was closer in size to Willard than he was to Johnson. Ali was faster than Johnson. Boxed better. Moved like no one Johnson ever faced. He threw combinations that fighters at that time didn't throw.

It would be a blowout. Johnson would be in way over his head. He wasn't bigger or stronger than Ali. Ali - in his prime - rarely allowed himself to be tied up. The pace would be unlike anything Johnson experienced. The number and frequency of blows he'd take would be unlike anything he ever faced.

Could Johnson even cut off the ring against a guy much bigger than him, who moved like Ali did in his prime?

It would be embarrassingly one-sided. And it wouldn't go many rounds.

People imagining Johnson "getting stronger" after being hit with about a thousand blows after 10 rounds, and he'd somehow take over or even "outbox" Ali in the 30th or 35th (when Johnson never came close to seeing those rounds himself - forget about ever looking good in them) ... are just kidding themselves.

If Johnson managed to survive even 10 rounds, by the time a prime Ali started to wear down, Johnson would've absorbed so much punishment (more than he ever took in a fight in reality), it's doubtful he'd have much left.

And we've all seen an older Ali lay on the ropes for 15 rounds and still outpoint people. So even if Ali went to the ropes after building up a monster lead and beating the hell out of Johnson ... Johnson never did anything after the 20th round in any fight to prove he could outbox Ali who was content to lay on the ropes and fight in spurts.

If these two men actually stepped in the ring against each other, Ali would've destroyed the much smaller, slower and far-far-far less busy Johnson.

It would've been a short night. Ali in three.

 

I don't want this to degenerate into another argument but since I'm reading Adam's latest book I've found these offers to have been bogus or hastlily withdrawn
.Johnson time and again stated he would defend against anybody who could come up $30,000, the same purse as Burns got for defending against him.
I have just read Adams take on these offers they are at variance with yours, no surprise there.

 

As I said before, if I read the book I'd likely find more foul things about Johnson.

It was mentioned he attacked a sickly 120 man suffering from tuberculosis. Jack claimed self-defense?

He also beat his wife within an inch from her life.

Johnson sounds like an evil person from A Clockwork Orange book. In fact you could argue he was. We have a trained fighter beating on the defenseless.

Why Johnson is defended today, and not shown for who he really was outside of the ring is a bit puzzling? Instead he's cast as a victim. How ironic.

As for the offers, Johnson had them from well-known promoters, including HD McIntosh, who set up the Burns vs. Johnson match. Johnson simply had no interest in defending his belt vs. the best out there. As champion Johnson could have fought anyone in multiple nations.

As for Adam's take, Klompton who is as well researched as anyone here in the 1910's to 1930's pointed out Adam's take wasn't exactly an evenly balanced view in some cases. Such is the author's privilege to write if he chooses. I'm sure the book is good.

 

Hard to tell if your laughing at the reference, or not. But I find it valid.

I'll hit you up with another one. Both Ali and Johnson were active with the ladies and went through them like a pack of gum. And judging by the photo's neither were picky.

Ali has nine known children. Jack himself had none. Apparently Ali understood the term protect yourself at all times a bit better for his random encounters

 

This thread is about Johnson v Ali, if you want to discuss all the offers you say Johnson got to fight the other black guys then Adam's thread is the place to do so..


There is a ton of stuff in his new book that goes into great detail
about the offers and Johnson willingness to accept them, if his price was met,
It also has direct quotes from Sulllivan and McVey
on the chances of the black challengers against him.
I've made my pick on this thread,[ Ali,] and haven't anything further to say.

 

Fair enough. Out of respect for the author I'm not going to comment in that thread. We both agree Ali wins here.

For those who want a very old timer's view on Ali vs Johnson, Charley Rose who felt Sam Langford was the best heavyweight of all time, and might have viewed Ali as a bad citizen type said this in 1966:

^^^ There you have it. However Ali had a good lead right that knocked Liston, Foreman and Lyle out. Ali could land this punch on Johnson.

In addition Rose fails to comment on Johnson's trouble with Jack O'Brien's jab, or mention how the concept of the jab has improved.

Johnson himself wasn't an active puncher. Ali would easily out work him with or without body shots.

 

Brogues? Haha I thought he did his roadwork in like big army boots or something? Brogues must be something different where you come from - where I come from they ****ty kinda 80's style flimsy shoes haha you Definately couldn't run in them most of the footage I've seen of ALI out running he's in massive heavy army boots to strengthen his legs etc - and Jesus that would! :tired.

 

Think you may have missed the point of the thread to be honest we're not just talking a straight standard match up in modern ring conditions?? :huh. He means taking into account the difference the conditions would have and how it would alter the whole dynamics of the fight I.E. ALI not being able to move like he could and throw flurries on the move etc??. We're not just talking the ALI of Cleveland Williams in a modern ring against Jack Johnson still only being able to perform to the levels his conditions allowed for? 5hitty ring 5hitty leather soled boxing boots unable to move very fast in etc and no wraps and tiny gloves unable to throw glancing shots with abandon like Ali was able to in his day etc and in a scheduled 25 or 45 rounder etc no gum shield - basically Ali being completely unable to be the Ali you describe - having to fight slow and flatfooted and with not many shots to play with etc??

 

Brogans that weighed several pounds each.

 

You might call them brogan's, who knows? But he said he did the roadwork in shoes that weighed 2 lbs, as opposed to what are colloquially known as trainers these days, or running shoes, whatever.

 

Whoa there Johnny.

So when you say a fantasy fight. You ACTUALLY mean a fantasy Ali. Not the one that hundreds of millions of people globally knew, and saw. Rather a slow, feeble, one dimentional Ali that never actually existed, until that fukking horrible Parkinson's Syndrome stuck it's oar in.

Ok, got it now.

Johnson wins in the same manner a Chinese politician wins an election.:rofl:rofl