Jack Johnson vs Muhammad Ali, 1910

Nat also felt Bob Fitzsimons was the 3rd best of all time ( into the 1960's ) , and was rather fond of Johnson. Johnson on film looks far from untouchable unless you see him vs a 5'9" Flynn or Ketchel, who shows the skill level of a modern day tough man. I just fail to see great defense on film or in print vs. those who could box. When I first started to read boxing, My thoughts were that Johnson had good defense. Then I saw the films and the tooth fairy disappeared.

You could debate the Ketchel knockdown either way. I think its a legit punch that surprised Johnson. Ketchel was a wild swinging type. In a previous round he caught Johnson with a punch that produced a visible mark. Was that in the script too? Ketchel was a mess. Fighters just don't get marked up and knocked down in arrangements. The crowds of the time could smell bogus efforts.

The fighters you mentioned for defense had much better footwork / mobility and faceed better competition as champion. For Johnson his best for of defense was clinching, not ducking, countering, blocking, etc...

I would say Johnson had good reflexes for defense, but far from good technique.

I disagree, O'Brien would not land much at all on modern heavyweights. He's too small. However if matched vs a man near his height who had a low guard and mostly stationary feet, he could and did.

 

I've been involved with the sport of boxing for many many years. Dundee and Clancy I considered friends. When I watch Johnson I see an amazing defensive fighter.

Most of the greatest defensive fighters ever fought with low hands. Protecting themselves from body blows and using true defensive boxing to ward off head shots. This is what Johnson was a master unlike no other.

Fleischer saw them all and rated Johnson as high as they come. You have seen......no one.......so my pick is that Fleischer knew more than you.

Gunboat Smith who was in Johnsons corner at ringside for his bout with Ketchel stated in an interview before he passed away that the KD was faked. Again I believe someone who was there and an expert over you who obviously was not there and can only speculate looking at severely grainy silient film footage. Over and above this my interpretation of the film is that the KD was faked.

Small has nothing to do with it. In a 21 foot ring in a short bout it's very possible that one of the greatest lt heavy boxers (mover and jabber) could out point many hwt champions. The smaller ATG is just too crafty and quick to be caught over six short rounds.

Finally JJ was considered the greatest hwt champion and the greatest defensive hwt champion for many decades. What he was known for was great blocking technique. This is something you state above he could not do well. Suggest you look a bit closer as you are missing something others like myself see readily.

 

It's been proven JJ was just wiping Rosen off his gloves....not teeth.

For whatever reason the KD was faked. Certainly looks fake to me and has looked that way to me for 40 years.

 

I'm going for Johnson. He'd totally negate Ali's offense, by parrying and holding. He'd make Ali lead and force the fight, something he wasn't comfortable with. It would be a lousy fight, though.

 

The punch he hit Ketchel with was a right hand. He was wiping off his left glove.

 

This is true. Ali would need to come to Johnson as I don't believe JJ would play an attack game. The question is whether Ali would be able to dominate with his speed or would JJ be able to handle it and then land his own blows. Interesting matchup. Again I favor prime JJ in a long bout where Ali would need to better pace himself to last the distance. In a shorter bout where Ali the speedster can use all that speed in every round its Ali's fight.

 

No matter the era I have a hard time envisioning Johnson beating Ali. We're not talking about a MW in Ketchel or a way past it Jeffries here. We're talking about the fastest HW to ever lace on a pair of gloves. Combine that with Ali's height and reach advantage and chin for that matter and it's a no lose situation for Ali. Johnson liked to sit back and control the pace but that won't work in this case. He's going to have to deal with a hard fast (and educated) consistently thrown jab all night. from a bigger faster HW who will have the luxury of fighting from a distance. Johnson will have to pick up the pace and go after Ali if he wants to do any damage not fight off the back foot and try to block any incoming shots. It could be touch and go for awhile but Ali would prevail. I liken this to Ali's bout with Folley...and we know how that ended up

 

Johnson takes this fight with superior defense and waiting out Ali

 

Jack Johnson, leaning on his back foot, his hands down, no jab, no footwork, smiling, waiting to counter would get DESTROYED by a prime Ali. DESTROYED.

It's the Cleveland Williams fight all over. In fact, it might not even go that long.

Ali in three short rounds. Ali embarrasses him.

Nobody from that era beats a prime Ali.

The leap boxing took from a stationary, hadn't fought in years Jim Jeffries to Muhammad Ali can't be measured.

 

Johnson had a great jab and an impenetrable defense in his prime.

 

Yes. One or two jabs a round ... against guys who didn't jab or move and wound up every once in a while to throw haymakers.

Johnson was primarily a counter puncher who leaned back from or caught the punches of shorter, slow guys.

A prime Ali, moving in circles, jabbing constantly, throwing four or five punches at a time at the "defensive genius" Johnson ... who was used to little guys throwing a haymaker here and a haymaker there every couple minutes ... it would've been a wipeout.

Cleveland Williams had a good jab, too. A lot of good that did him.

Against Ali, Johnson would be too slow, too stationary, and not nearly busy enough. Not even close.

Size and speed kills.

 

As mentioned in a short bout you must feel Ali has the advantage. However in a bout of 25 rounds or longer it's a different story as Ali won't be able to move as he would typically. It's then a JJ fight and he would dominate. Johnson was an ATG with ATG abilities. It would be foolhardy to think Ali would steamroll a prime Johnson. Ali had his toughest bouts against smaller men who could better match his speed. Johnson was an ATG with great speed and unparalleled boxing skills. Ali would be fighting an opponent with a skill set best apt to outbox Ali. Doug Jones did so and he was a zero as compared to JJ.