Jack Johnson vs Muhammad Ali, 1910

Johnson by all accounts was a very quick fighter. Chuvalo moved like a brick wall. If you can't see that difference time to get glasses or choose a different sport.

 

Great timing can negate speed. Mr. Johnson possessed the reflexes, sharpness, and timing to catch Mr. Ali. Size is essentially a wash.

That said, I'm uncertain who ultimately wins. A 1910 environment with 20,30+ rounds does no favors to the modern man who is known for his movement, so I would likely edge the house era man.

 

Jack Johnson is overrated.

 

Like I said, what you know about boxing, and a pound sterling wouldn't pay for a decent haircut. Johnson resembled Chuvalo far more than he resembled Ali as far as speed of hand and foot is concerned. He would have had as much idea how to deal with the speed and movement of prime Ali as you would have. NONE.

And if you don't think Dundee's comments regarding Ali's MO in the ring has anything to with this thread, then you ought to stick to yoghurt knitting. It seems to me your whole demeanour is " I am an old man, so I must know more than anyone else, particularly those younger than me. "

I have news for you, the world is full of stupid old bast ards.

 

He certainly is. An exceptionally good fighter in his era, pre first world war. However you would have to be blinder than Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles to not see Ali was leagues above him.

 

Double chin is checking chins here. I agree with 90% of what he wrote.

Where I disagree is it doesn't go past three rounds. Ali liked the action to come to him, Johnson wasn't very aggressive unless he had his man hurt or was in there with a harmless / smaller type of an opponent.

 

Again the way to fight prime Ali would be to box him and no finer example of great boxing exists in the hwt division than JJ.

 

Griffin was past his best by 1901. Johnson had 25+-recorded fights by the time they meet.

The fact that Johnson was 0-1-2 vs. Griffin is revealing. Jeffries bounced the same man around in the same year.

Johnson also lost to Hart and Choynski (Slightly past his prime ). This tells me that when Johnson fought men close enough to their prime with experience, and some power, he was often left wanting.

Yes--Johnson beat Langford and McVey who could punch, BUT McVey was a teenager, and Langford 156 pounds and age 20. So what. Had Johnson beaten Langford or MCVey close to their heavyweight primes, it would mean a lot.

When I look at Johnson's resume, his most impressive win is likely Tommy Burns. Burns would not even be in Ali's best 10 wins! The gap between the quality of men beaten is wide and deep.

Frazier 2x
Foreman
Norton
Shavers
Lyle
Liston 2x
Quarry
Patterson

 

AGAIN. Johnson was a sh it boxer compared to Ali, and not big, strong, or powerful enough to turn it into a fight.

It is completely impossible for Johnson to win, and it is far less than likely he sees past the 3rd round.

 

Again you are as wrong as any person could be. Johnson was a far better textbook boxer than Ali. No fighter is rated as highly as Johnson has been rated over the last century unless they were an ATG. His ability to block, party and slip punches is unequaled to this day in the hwt division. Whether he beats Ali is open to debate. The greatness of both fighters is not debatable.

 

Jeffries was in his prime in1901 .Johnson was not.
Johnson was not in his prime in1901 ,which is what you said.

Quote.
"The Griffin, Hart, and Willard matches are examples, and none of these guys were close to Ali's class. Two of these matches happened Johnson was in his prime years".





Griffin had 3 fights with Johnson, 2 were draws and1 was a win for Johnson, in their last fight in1902 Griffin was 32 years old.

Griffin had a further 11 fights after the last Johnson draw, losing just one of them.

Johnson considered his first fight with Griffin his hardest and best fight up until 1909, he stated that he was not fully physically developed in those fights otherwise he thought he might have stopped Griffin. See link below.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn88085947/1909-12-21/ed-1/seq-12/



Johnson was scaling around 170 /180lbs at this time.

Pollack considers the weight disparity between Choynski and Johnson which was in 1901 , to be negligible.


I've been generous with weights here because Adam estimates that Choynski and Johnson both scaled around 170lbs for their fight'
Four months
after the last Griffin fight, Johnson was said to weigh 182lbs in his bout with George Gardner. That is 26lbs less than he weighed for Jeffries in 1910 ,when he said he was at his best
.Photos show the Johnson of Reno, scaling 208lbs was in terrific condition.
A 180/182lbs Johnson was not fully physically developed,and certainly not prime either in musculature or ring experience. Johnson scaled 185lbs in1906 when he fought Langford 5 years later..

 

Johnson has been fighting since 1894. He was hardly a novice in 1901 when he lost to Choynski.

Adam estimates for weights does not mean he knows. He's guessing.

Griffin was reported to have over 200 fights by 1895. He was past his best by 1901 but had enough to get the better of Johnson in the series.

On Johnson's weight most of his best wins happened was he was under 200 pounds. The excuses for some start in 1909 when Johnson was too heavy at 205 pounds for O'Brien

This suggests Johnson's best weight was under 200 pounds. If your a boxer type without a lot of power, it is best to avoid extra pounds.

 

Again you are showing your total ignorance, and indeed arrogance, because you obviously believe you know more than your so called " friend " Dundee. It was precisely because Ali was NOT a textbook boxer that he made those that were look like idiots.

No other Heavyweight EVER could be completely off balance, have his feet in totally the wrong position and still throw blindingly fast accurate punches the way Ali did.

Perhaps you seriously ought to consider following another sport because you appear to be either an incredibly slow learner, or you simply can not comprehend what occurred in front of your own eyes where boxing is concerned.

 

You said Johnson was prime when he fought Griffin ,we know he was not. Adam took that estimate on the basis that both Choynski and Johnson were recorded at or around that weight in fights just previously and just after their fight,this seems emminently reasonable to me.
We do not know Johnson's weight for the OBrien fight but it was estimated in the 220's, he was described as," hog fat". Griffin lost just one of his fights after drawing with Johnson in1902, he was 32 years old, how could he be described as past his best?

Johnson added a further 28/35lbs of muscle to his frame after 1901 he declared he was in the best shape of his life when he beat Jeffries ,for which fight he scaled 208lbs.

 

Now the BS is flying. Johnson at 220 or more pounds for O'Brien?!

Nope, nope nope. More like 205. Box rec says 205. The below link estimates below 205. I'm sure I can find more if I tired.

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=LAH19090520.2.97.28.12

And there is just one " M " in eminently. Not that I really care, but you seem to care about this sort of stuff.

Just like Ali was best at 210-215, Johnson was best around 200. Add 15 pounds to either and their performance suffers.

200 pounds was 10 more than Sullivan or Dempsey best weight and near a prime Joe Louis. Fattening Johnson at the mid section in these fantasy fights vs. bigger opponents ( As Ali clearly was ) does make him better.