Jack Johnson vs Muhammad Ali, 1910

Of course I don't hold it against Johnson for finishing fights early, anymore than I would expect you to hold it against Ali for finishing 15 round fights early.



I should have thought the point you are missing is patently obvious. Ali trained for 15 round fights. So 5 more is not such a big deal. It is a fact that Ali could get up on his toes ( float ) for a couple of rounds, drop back down on to his feet, stand just out of range of a guy lean away from and slip punches, counter with his own very fast shots, then get back on his toes again and float away for the rest of the round.

There is nothing to suggest Jack Johnson could have any answer for this. Particularly while Ali is the one doing the taunting as he floats around popping Johnson with jabs, and staying out of range of any counters. The cliche " float like a butterfly, sting like a bee " was not without foundation. It was those stinging jabs that couldn't be countered that drove the other guy to change his game plan and try to take Ali's head off with shots. Johnson would be forced to change his game plan of waiting for the other guy to commit then catching punches and answering with his own. He would have no choice but to chase Ali around, either that or lose a wide decision. Personally I see Johnson chasing Ali for about 8 rounds, tiring, then getting stopped inside 12.

All the advantages here are Ali's, particularly speed and athleticism.

If your argument is solely based on the second fight by Johnson scheduled for 45 rounds, I'm sure given 9 months to prepare Ali could have got in shape for a one off 40 round fight in his prime, which is exactly the difference between the 15 he trained for and the 20 Johnson usually trained for.

Nothing would change, he would still use the same tactics of dancing, standing his ground, and dancing again. Rinse and repeat.

The problem here as I see it is people desperately want the post exile version of Ali in these fantasy fight match ups, who simply couldn't sustain the tactics mentioned above, and had to stand there and gut it out with guys.

 

Sorry I wasn't aware Ali only trained for 12 round championship fights pre exile, or even post exile come to that, seeing as the first ever 12 round Heavy title match was in March 83.

I am, by the way talking WORLD titles, not what some American states decide constitute as world titles.

 

Delete.

 

Hahaha. No chance, I concede, you win.

Screw the bleeding trainer, I'm throwing my own towel in.

 

I agree with Foxy. Ali didn't have to dance for 3 mins of every round to be effective. He could stand just out of range and sharpshoot his opponent then get the hell outta there. Prime Ali would've been too fast for Johnson. Jack would have to go on the offensive more than he liked if he wanted to do any damage. Sitting back and trying to swat Ali's jabs wouldn't do it. Cradling Ali in a clinch like he did to men like Burns, Ketchel et al wouldn't happen either. Ali is too big and strong for that. Jack's gonna have to get busy and trade with Ali and hope to steal a decision. Possible but not probable. Ali by decision.

 

BIGGEST FACTOR IN THIS FIGHT IS ONE THAT ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS EVEN MENTIONED AND DOUBT ANYBODY ON THIS BOARD EVEN KNOWS ABOUT.....ALI SURE AS HELL AIN''T GUNNA BE ABLE TO DANCE ONE IOTA IN THOSE LEATHER SOLED SHOES FROM JOHNSON'S DAY - NO CHANCE IN HELL!

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Haha no but this for me is the MAHOOSIVE difference - people just have no concept of this whatsoever - do people even understand why virtually no one even tried to break into a dance in those rings?? My grandad and all his peers to a man said you had to be careful just walking down the street in them to not slip over - it was only with the advent of rubber soled sneakers that ALI or anyone for that matter could even entertain the idea of fighting that way - you had to keep your feet planted on the floor in leather soled boots otherwise you be on your **** simply put. This is the one GIANT factor which would dictate the entire dynamic of the fight as it did to a great extent back then couple this with Ali's brittle hands according to Dundee he be risking messing his hands up without the handwraps etc? To BIG MASSIVE things to consider above all other things right there - can everyone please give me some considered responses to these Monumental differences?? Really would like to hear people's thoughts on these issues - and not raging arguments and *****ing and moaning just thoughts please

 

Not that Ali couldn't fight flat footed he could do it very well and did it enough himself but most people just doing the Cleveland Willaims thing dancing circles round Johnson like Fred Astaire but if we're talking old school boots old school ring etc he ain't gunna be doing that - no one could not even Ali - Johnson would occasionally do himself for couple of seconds in fights to show off but literally for a couple of seconds here and there and it was almost self mockingly when he did it because he knew he was risking coming a cropper and looking like a idiot slipping on a banana skin - no this fight in an old ring would be very different than most people even realise - and the reverse is true also throw Johnson forward 50 or 60 years and he is just transformed into 100 times better with better shoes better gloves better protected hands able explode with shots at full power without fear of damaging his hands - much better gum shields etc etc not to mention actually fighting in a situation where his safety wasn't in any danger if he humiliated anyone too much - most of his fights he could've ended in one or two rounds easy if he was allowed to - even under these circumstances he was still flattening everyone - and to those who thin Ali was a harder puncher than Jack Johnson that is the most ridiculous thing I've heard for some time - in an era of very hard men and hard punching men Johnson was secretly the hardest puncher of the lot just holding everything back on the whole - he was dropping people by accident - Ali was never consider even a particularly hard puncher in his era to the contrary - people need to stay in the realms of reality - Ali had his advantages over Johnson but punching power was not one of them

 

Prime Ali which is pre exile hwt champion Ali had to dance to be effective. Ali was never a textbook boxer and during those prime years used his legs to get him out of trouble. Without leg movement and his ability to use the ring he would need to box head to head with the greatest boxer in hwt history. In this scenario Johnson wins going away.