Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

:thumbsup XPERT-post.

 

Where do we have on film Johnson overpowering anyone of Liston's strength or size? This isn't lil' Tommy Burns. And Liston didn't get into the clinches for offensive advantage because he was so incredibly effective at a distance, with an ATG jab and inhuman reach. And with Johnson's footwork and lack of reach that's where this fight would be, at a distance, with Johnson absorbing heavy punishment.

 

Johnson did not quit against Klondike. The referee stopped the bout.

 

i love this line. and it's true, liston has physical qualities none of johnson's filmed victims had

 

[quote=Seamus;12596890]Where do we have on film Johnson overpowering anyone of Liston's strength or size? This isn't lil' Tommy Burns. And Liston didn't get into the clinches for offensive advantage because he was so incredibly effective at a distance, with an ATG jab and inhuman reach. And with Johnson's footwork and lack of reach that's where this fight would be, at a distance, with Johnson absorbing heavy punishment.[/quote]

We have very little film at all ,and none of him before he was champ , when you assert he was prime , so this question is rather ingenuous don't you think?

 

For the sake of argument (and certainly not come between you two mortal combatants) one can contend that Johnson's prime victories all occurred at 192 and below.

Jeanette
Langford
McVea
Burns

Though he photographed better later in his career, his performances were more inconsistent and his best victories were not the match for those above.

 

This has all the makings of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"ONE DULL FIGHT"

Jack Johnson, would use his 'cat and mouse' style.

Sonny Liston would 'plod through the trenches'.

A 'one-punch-at-a-time' fight.

The Judges would have to score it for somebody,,,,,,I say Sonny Liston by 'one-point'.

 

Fair point.

And 192 is plenty big enough to give Sonny Liston a good fight.

I don't think it makes much difference if we say Johnson is 190 or 205, he proved to be in great shape at both weights.

 

I have no problem agreeing with this. But, [here is the fly,] prime performances to not necessarily correlate to being in your prime . My contention is that Johnson was pre- prime in 1905 ,when he fought Hart, two years after this fight he only scaled 184 ,and 185lbs for two fights.

Johnson himself stated, he was at his best when he beat Jeffries in 1910, for that fight he weighed 208lbs that is at least 25lbs more than he scaled for the Hart fight 5 years earlier.

 

Welll clearly, a great number of people would say Jeffries was stronger than Liston... and Johnson is filmed overpowering him and walking hiim around the ring at times. So we have somebody more acclaimed for their strength more than liston, moving Jeffries around the ring when he wanted. Point is, Liston isn't stronger than Johnson with video evidence or narrative evidence. In fact, it's the opposite if anything.

Yes, Liston would be best served to fight outside, but you act like that was some crazy new thing for Johnson that he wouldn't be able to adapt to. We are talking about a guy who was one of the best thinkers and ring generals the ring has ever seen. Yet, you think he's going to get overwhelmed and perplexed by a jab and some 1 + 2 combos... I don't agree. As I've stated, the OP stacks the deck in Liston's favor and many still don't think he can pull a majority. If the OP evened things out a bit.. and made it a 25 round fight and clinching work of Johnson time permitted... It would be a clear victor for Johnson. As it is even when handicapped... Johnson still gets votes... Not because of a PR.. but because of his skill and things he was clear and away better at than Liston... intangibles... Heart... fortitude... intelligence, athleticsm (better athlete than liston).. To add to his boxing attributes superior to Liston.. Defense, ring generalship, chin, speed etc etc. I would say Power is a wash... I say they hit just as hard.... Liston let go more.. and johnson fought more conservative... but we see when Johnson let go... He had every bit as much power as Liston.

I think Johnson would be too slick and clever for Liston and take him to place he didn't want to go. If you gave Johnson two years.. just two years.. to fight and spar with (as you call them modern fighters) it would be game over for Liston.

 

This is one of my problems with the estimations of Johnson. I really don't care what he said. I am more concerned what was proven in the ring. Jeffries was a lousy opponent. It's likely he thought the fight was not on the level up until a couple days before the event, that he had it in the bag regardless of his ability. If memory serves (and I don't mind being corrected), his sparring sessions were closed to the public. Ketchell saw some of these and was so appalled he wanted to KO Jeff during ring introductions to save the White Race the indignity of the beating he knew was to follow. Jim Flynn stated he was in no shape to fight, completely shot.

What we are left with is the very impressive record of a modern cruiserweight, and a guy who moved up only to face softer touches while in the full bloom. Let's face it, his most impressive work, the work upon which his greatness rests, occurred when he was in the 185-190 range. The rest is not nearly as impressive and largely based on conjecture.

 

Ketchel ,who was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, seriously put forward the plan to Wilson Mizner his sometime manager that when he was introduced to the crowd and went over to shake hands with Jeffries , he would unleash his right hand wallop and ko Jeffries thus rendering him unfit to fight and saving the "honour of the white race".

Mizner sensibly pointed out to Stanley that both of them had put all their dough on Johnson to win. Stanley eventually saw reason ,and contented himself with being one of the two time keepers of the fight.


Ketchel had been barred from Jeffries camp for picking Johnson to beat him.

Jeffries camp was a shambles with several spats and fights going on between his friends.

Farmer Burns the Champion Wrestler , now in his late 40's, got in a fight with Billy Papke after Papke said Jeffries looked like ****, Papke let a few shots go on Burns, Burns grabbed him and wrestled him to the floor making him quit, or have limbs broken.

Corbett and Choynsi got into a dispute and nearly came to blows,Jeffries had to come out and play peace maker.

Johnson was roaring around in his roadster, giving Rickard palpitations,Jack was unimpressive in public workouts ,so bad that Hugh D McIntosh questioned him after seeing him put up a particularly desultory show against Al Kaufman, his sparring partner.


Johnson drew McIntosh aside and said he was intentionally looking bad to increase the odds and to" bet all you have on me".
McIntosh had $20,000 on Johnson at 10-7 against.

Sam Langford was particularly prominent stating Jeffries would kill Johnson, and Tommy Burns agreed. After the humiliation of Jeffries , neither of them was very popular with those who had financially followed their "expert advice" a fact that Johnson noted with glee.

 

Let's face it. He put on another 20lb of well carried muscle weight just 2-3 years later. There is no way you will convince me he was better at 185lb in 1906 than a ripped 205lb in 1910