Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

I agree, he clearly was better even if he didn't fight enough good competition to prove it. Seamus is a very versed guy and funny, but his yarns and belittling of Johnson goes a tad overboard at times. He just doesn't believe anybody pre tunney is much to write home about.

 

Yes, he proved he would do better in physique contests.

But at that same time, he turned in some of his least impressive performances... O'Brien, Tony Ross, Ketchell... These were not great opponents for a heavyweight title. And against O'Brien, that was not a heavyweight champ result.

So, am I to conclude that his "ripped 205" prime last entirely one fight against a completely shot, retired fighter come alfalfa farmer/saloon owner who returned to the sport with no tune-ups? If true, I guess Johnson is kind of a poor man's Buster Douglas.

 

Ketchell wasn't a poor performance at all... he literally CARRIED ketchel for rounds at a time not wanting to put him away to sell another fight. Once he decided to end the fight... it was over in brutal fashion.. and I mean brutal. Hardly a poor performance. Am I suppose to believe the 49ers of 88' were worse than 89' team that won just because they played an easier team in the superbowl? No, they had clearly evolved and gotten better. Just because they didn't prove it against a stronger team changes nothing.

 

That's because he probably wasn't even trying. Have you watched the film? He spends most of the time laughing and toying. These white goof troopers are a joke to him. He probably could have knocked these guys out in 1-3 rounds had he wanted too.

 

Johnson gets more credit and benefit of the doubt for his "not trying" than any other fighter in history.

In my book, even were it not a dubious claim, it would be no rung on to which to hang your hat.

 

It was a poor performance in the sense of who he chose to fight, a 5 foot 9 inch middleweight, who so far as to my knowledge had never fought a heavyweight before. That performance should do nothing for his status and more protean to the point, does nothing to prove he was in prime shape. He beat up a middleweight in said middleweight's first fight in the division under shady circumstances. Who else among champions gets credit for such dog**** outings?

 

Ketchel had already fought # 1 rated heavyweight contender Sam Langford to a draw

 

Didn't he fight him after Johnson?

And wasn't that fight rather suspicious?

 

Yea maybe he did.

Some say it was, but others say it was on level.

 

Yeah, it was after. Boxrec considers it a newspaper decision for Langford. If I remember correctly, the Moyle book makes it sound like Langford was carrying him to set up a more lucrative rematch. I might be mis-remembering.

Regardless, Ketchell did really nothing to deserve the shot except be a potentially lucrative payday either in the first fight or in a ballyhooed rematch. I am not going to deride Johnson for going for the dollar over legacy. Seriously, he had been through enough in his career and deserved some payout. Still, there is only so much that can be proven through his performances.

 

Wilson Mizner, Ketchel's then manager said years later, that Jim Coffroth the promoter had a meeting with both Ketchel and Langford,telling them that if they agreed to fake a 6 rounder, he could build up public interest and rematch them over 45rds for the middleweight ttile and a $30,000 purse.
Mizner said the whole affair was choreographed with both taking turns of apparently being on the verge of a ko, only to recover in the nick of time and reverse things.The two fighters shared a $13,000 purse, with Ketchel , because of his complexion, receiving $9000 .

Ketchel was allready on the slide by this time , years of carousing , hard drinking and a fondness for opium had robbed him of some of his ferocity. Frank Klaus is supposed to have been paid to go easy with Ketchel in their no dec fight. To cap it all Ketchel had contracted syphilis, so he was far from the tumultous hurricane of his younger days.
Just prior to the Porky Flynn fight ,Ketchel had a premonition that the world was coming to an end,so why bother to turn up at all?

Mizner reminded Ketchel that they owed a considerable amount of money out in gambling debts,and that, should the world still be turning in the morning ,they would need all the" do re mi" they could get.
Ketchel now persuaded, belted Flynn out, and thew a bucket of water over him to bring him round.

 

Why does it even matter what weight we have him at ?

If you don't necessarily believe the extra 15 or 20 pounds of "good" weight (muscle) would make him a more formidable fighter, then why the focus on how big or small his opponents are compared to, say, Sonny Liston ?

Incidentally, every time Liston lost, he lost to a fighter he outweighed (by 7 - 24 pounds.)
He lost to Cassius Clay, who had just come fresh off of struggling against two journeymen contenders in the 180s.
He lost to Leotis Martin, a blown-up light-heavy, and Marty Marshall, a not-so-blown-up light-heavy.

Yeah, maybe the 192 pound Johnson would be the best weight to kick Liston's lumbering ass.

 

Seamus is on a roll. How can a frail chinned pillow punching O'Brien make a prime Jack Johnson look bad with his jab? Obviously Johnson lacked the defense to deal with O'Brien's Jab. Some papers, including ones in the same state felt O'Brien was the better. How is Johnson going to handle Sonny liston's ram rod jab with a 15" fist and 84" reach?


Ross was a joke of a title defense. What did he win, something like one of his last 8 fights going into the match? Ketchel was very crude, yet the he did manage to floor Johnson. What we have here are two middle weight embarrassing Johnson who was by far and away the bigger man for both matches. I am more than sure Liston would KO Kethcel and Ross in 2 rounds or less.

 

I think Johnson had the size, skills and strength to stand tall against Liston... Liston had a good stiff jab and a great right hand with power, but he was flat-footed and somewhat ponderous... A great dream fight... Either champ could win this fight in a scheduled 15 rounder with 10 oz. gloves in a 20 X 20 ring...

Prediction:

Liston by early to middle rds KO, or Johnson mugs Liston late by TKO or wide decision...
bbb

MR.BILL:hat

 

O Brien had 120 fights, he was stopped 5 times, 4 of them were tkos to the likes of Fitz ,Langford, Ketchel . He was only ko'd ONCE, by 220lbs, Al Limerick.
Hardly evidence of a frail chin.

Johnson lacked defence? Yeah ,ok
He retired after 80 fights , spread over 34 years , without a mark on him.atsch