Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

True.
A lot of champions fight in a 'flawed' or unorthodox style.
With an era where very little footage or any fighters exists, and the footage is mostly of very murky quality, it seems unwise to generalise about the way fighters boxed back then from such an inadequate sampling.
They all do things different.

 

Things I learned today on Classic ESB...

While the measurable strength of contestants in every sport increased over the 20th century... in heavyweight boxing, the strength actually decreased... even while the size, in general, increased.

Fascinating.

 

Interesting.
Could you provide examples or sources for when these insights became realized ?

 

Fair enough.

It doesn't effect it that much. You can still see the fundamental moves the old guys make, and how they wouldn't prove effect in modern boxing. The particular thing that annoys me is how they all hold their hands down. I mean really? It also seems very rough and tumble sort of combat, with cuffing being off balance and clinching super-abundant.

 

But who (trainers, fighters etc.) were the first to say or note than leaning away in a stance was not worth it ?

Those two lightweights I posted above weren't leaning away.
And clearly all those fighters who fought in a "crouch" or "half-crouch" (1890s, 1900s) weren't leaning away.

Also, surely with guys like Young Griffo or whoever having over 200 fights, they might be expected to acquire the experience independently that would tell them something or other was "not worth it". If something is so fundamental how could they miss it ?

 

This is a particulalry silly and trite response,which prompts the obvious riposte.

Are the modern counterparts of the fighters of the turn of the century necessarily stronger just because they are modern?

 

Nothing trite or silly about it.

Strength is measurable in various disciplines. And across the prism of sport, the strength of top level contestants has increased dramatically over the course of the 20th century. Yet, I am to believe, because Johnson threw around weak-ass lightheavies or depleted old alfalfa farmers, that he was stronger than Liston? That is not only a silly and trite assertion but one which nakedly reflects the rosy-hued nostalgia that passes for judgement in these parts.

 

I could've sworn I saw johnson hitting Fireman J.F. like 10 times in a row with a jab...

 

No you didn't. You said New England was done as a superbowl threat. Well making the superbowl clearly shows they ARE a superbowl threat. What happened to your Ravens, Packers, Saints, Steelers? I thought you said those were the superbowl contenders? Patriots made it further than all of them.


:good:good:good

We are making the superbowl AGAIN next year

 

What on God's green earth is this nonsense coming from that Liston is STRONGER than Johnson. Not only do I not believe that for one second, it's impossible to prove. What we can say, is that Johnson physically overpowered somebody MORE KNOWN for their strength than Liston.. Jeffries. While Jeffries was not prime, stamina faded as the fight went on, and not crsip from such a long lay-off... One thing you don't lose much of is strength. As most of you know, there IS a thing called old man strength... As you get older..even into your 40's you still have that man strength that you don't have in your teens and 20's even. Jeffries I believe was every bit as strong as he used to be and he got manhandled by Johnson. Is Sonny strong... of course... could he hit harder than Johnson... I believe so (on average, but when johnson let go.. he had that kinda power)... Did Sonny manhandle ANYBODY as known for their strength as Johnson did.. No way, no how.