Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

Willie Reddish said Sonny Liston was the strongest heavyweight he had ever seen. Jack Johnson was in that ballpark, but no one was stronger than Liston.

 

The facts to me are this... Johnson has better stamina, better chin, better at not getting hit, better at parrying, better at clinching, quicker, better movement, better athlete.... I just don't know how these can be debated.. and yet... some would have you believe the "modern" Liston has the "primative" Johnson beat in all eras.

What is also amusing is the handcapping of Johnson so to speak. You are taking somebody who didn't train with modern equipment or diet.. who probably would've been bigger had he ate a proper diet growing up. Then, not giving him the benefit of training and fighting some in the modern era to get used to "all these crazy new punches invented" and making him fight in an era you guys claim is so advanced, while not giving him any time to adjust to said period. Yet, even with said handcapping.. Johnson is THAT good that many, including me, still pick johnson. You give Johnson 20 bouts in the modern era and 3 years to train prior.. Game over... Johnson beats sonny every day of the week and twice on sunday

 

So Sonny didn't manhandle anybody that was as acclaimed as Jeffries in the strength department then? Not just talked about strength, but proven strength against what you guys call "strong homo erectus" type fighters... Yet, somehow Sonny is stronger.. you guys jest

 

He probably was able to come close to his old strength for a round or two before his stamina gave out and Johnson's attack and pace began to wilt him. He was in horrible fighting shape according to those in his camp.

It might also be time to realize that Jeffries' strength is vastly overrated, in that his best victories, the greatest evidence of his strength in action, were against sub 190 pound fighters.

 

You're a funny guy Seamus, and I like you (no homo), but tell me this...

Did Liston EVER manhandle anybody of note in the strength department? If so, who was this strongman and can I see some evidence of his suppose strength above his peers.. If not, we are left with Sonny NOT manhandling anybody of note in the strength department and another fighter known for his strength. I do agree, that jeffries lived in a era of romanticism was running wild and some stories were no doubt embellished. That said, Jeffries has MUCH MORE narratives on his strength against the fighters he faced than does Sonny. My point, no way is Sonny stronger than Johnson, let alone by some big degree. and again...

What is also amusing is the handcapping of Johnson so to speak. You are taking somebody who didn't train with modern equipment or diet.. who probably would've been bigger had he ate a proper diet growing up. Then, not giving him the benefit of training and fighting some in the modern era to get used to "all these crazy new punches invented" and making him fight in an era you guys claim is so advanced, while not giving him any time to adjust to said period. Yet, even with said handcapping.. Johnson is THAT good that many, including me, still pick johnson. You give Johnson 20 bouts in the modern era and 3 years to train prior.. Game over... Johnson beats sonny every day of the week and twice on sunday

 

Johnson manhandled many, many big men McVey, Kaufman, Ferguson, Johnson , etc.

Show me ONE report of Liston using his vaunted strength to manhandle / boss his opponent.
I never said Johnson was stronger than Liston , I said it is not a given that Liston was necessarily stronger than some of Johnson's opponents , just because he fought in a modern era.

Athletes today, are breaking records that were made in the 60's, Liston's era , does that mean that the boxers of today are stronger than Liston's time?

Just for the record , not every one who disagrees with you is automatically a ****, living on past ,misty memories.

 

Kurupt, I like you, too, as I generally do all on here (total homo).

Of course, we can never know for sure which was stronger. That given, Sonny didn't routinely have an enormous size advantage over his opponents that would allow such roughhousing. And secondly, he was so great at controlling range and pace with that ATG jab, it was rarely necessary or advisable for him to get into the wrasslin' stuff. The anecdotal stuff on Liston is that he was even stronger than he looked. This comes from opponents and sparring partners that were true heavyweights, not bandy-legged, woman-hipped midgets who scaled 167...

In regards to your second point, I always judge head to head on the actual form and shape each opponent presented in their day... not what they could have perhaps achieved were some of the variables changed.

 

Yet, wouldn't you agree, you're stacking the deck in favor of Liston. You're having fight under modern rules, with having fought under such rules and the other not having done so. Couple that with having one fighter fighting in a era that is "primitive" to use your word and not give him the benefit of training in a modern era to get adjusted to the change in period. While having liston fight in era he is used to having fought in said era. Then further taking away some more strengths of Johnson (use of clinching and longer rounds) to the benefit of Liston. If I transported Liston to Johnson era... you better believe he would be schooled by Johnson and broken down over a much longer fight than he was used to, but this would've also happened to him against other primitive HW as you call them. So, you wouldn't agree the deck is already stacked in favor of Liston, and the mere fact that some (including me) still give the fight to Johnson is indicitive of how much skill and adaptability (for one of the smartest boxers ever) we give to Johnson even will be stacked against? Nervermind, you just think we all overrate Johnson...

 

One of those " bandy legged, woman hipped midgets".

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He looks more than 167lbs to me.

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Another.

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Another .

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Another.

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I agre with the last part though , lets judge them as they were, not some hypothetical version ,of what we imagine they may have become.

 

McVea, Jim Johnson and Jeanette weren't exactly monsters, all being under 6 feet if I remember correctly... And Battling Jim was pretty much a .500 fighter, too...

But if you must know, the bandy legged, woman waisted midgets looked like this...

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All were 200lbs or more.All significantly bigger than Floyd Patterson whom Liston won the title from.

Should I put up a pic of a middleweight Floyd ?

How about 180lbs Marty Marshall, who broke Liston's jaw ?

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Up to your old ,predictable tricks , a photo of a teenage O Brien? How desperate are you?

Here are two of the mature, early- thirties man that Johnson fought.

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Looks a bit different I'd say.

Below Burns ,doesn't appear to be anything wrong with his legs to me.

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Style review from Sports Illustrated
In a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Illustrated"]Sports Illustrated[/ame] profile of Liston at this time it was opined that he was rather ponderous, relied too much on his ability to take a punch and could be vulnerable to an opponent with more hand speed.[14] Liston's next opponent was skilled and seasoned [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Machen"]Eddie Machen[/ame] whose mobility enabled him to go the distance despite taunting and provoking throughout their bout. However Machen's spoiling tactics of dodging and grappling (at one point almost heaving Liston over the ropes) so alienated the audience that Liston received unaccustomed support from the crowd.[15] Prior to his bout with Liston, Ali consulted Machen and was advised that that the key to success was to make Liston lose his temper. [16][17]

I think Johnson might be able to manage this



Now ,stop ****ing about .:nono

 

The reality, is that Jack Johnson is as proven against larger heavyweights, as any champion before the 1980s.

He answered any question on this issue.

 

Photoing a guy from below does make them look big. However, numbers don't lie. He was a whopping 162 when he fought Johnson, an overstuffed middlweight.

Burns looks positively womanly in form and dimension. He has very productive-looking birthing hips. Is he just fat or is there some sort of estrogen overload there? Again, he was a whopping 167 for his title tilt versus Johnson.

Tossing around these bean sacks does little to impress me. Granted, I am not saying Johnson was weak. Rather, he was very strong. However, his best opponents (and this is a point Janitor seems to miss) and his best victories were against the smaller of the heavies, the biggest of this lot, McVea and Jeanette, being analogous to the norm of what Sonny faced. There were no good, big heavies along the lines of Cleveland Williams or Valdes or even possibly DeJohn level.

All this tit for tat strongman argument ignores the fact that Liston controlled distance and pace with that 84-inch reach and poleax of a jab. The only way proven to avoid this was to let Sonny age sufficiently and have great and quick footwork, something I would not label Johnson as quite possessing (nor did he have some mean looking NOI dudes lining ringside).

All aspects told, I think Johnson gives Liston a good, rough fight, going more and more in retreat as the rounds go by, finding out that, no, he is not the stronger in the clinch, and ultimately gets hammered out around the 10th.

Cheers!

 

Again buddy, do you agree that the fight made here inherently handicaps Johnson and some of his strengths.

 

:rofl:rofl Seamus stop it! I just spit out my water laughing in front of my whole class