Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

To be fair, a lot of powerlifters have wide fat hips. It could even be a sign of his strength. Narrow hips are all good for the Calvin Klein model look that you so adore, but not necessarily a sign of raw strength.

 

Burns measurements were.

Height 5' 7"
Chest 40"
Exp 43.75"
Waist 33"
Reach 74.5"
Neck 16"
Biceps 14.50"
Thigh 22"
Calf 16.50"
Fist 12"

For a man of his height and weight very respectable, imo.
It's interesting that until Willard ,the only other champ who had a longer reach was Jeffries.

 

I read an article the other day, from the 1920s I think, with the reporter telling how a 40-something Jack Johnson had demonstrated his strength by picking up this reporter (who weighed 215 pounds) and holding him off the floor at arm's length. That's phenomenal strength.

But a lot of those old-timers had been training for strength their entire lives. It's not that surprising.

 

McVey was a teenager when Johnson beat him.. Jeannette was a novice who often had a losing or .500 type of record when he meet Johnson. Beating these two when Johnson did is not close to beating the prime versions of McVey and Jeanette.


Manhandling a 5'7 168 pound Burns ( who many at ring side said looked ill and yellow ), or a 5'9" blown up middle in Ketchel does not mean much in the context of this thread.


What does mean something is a boxer mover type like O'Brien out scored Johnson. So much for Johnson's vaunted defense. On film, Johnson did not handle Moran in the clinches at all, despite having a weight advantage. Johnson did not come close to doing his usual antics to a bigger Willard either. These matches are on film to view. So is the Jeffries match, and those who watch the film can see clearly that Jeffries moves Johnson backward more often then not until the later rounds when he gassed out. Did Johnson manhandle a guy his size in Marvin Hart? No, again.


I do think Johnson was pretty strong, but we just don't seem him manhandling someone his size, in their prime on film, and certainly not against anyone bigger. The theory is a reach.

 

Respectable? Maybe for a middle weight. If we take Burns at 168 pounds, and compare him to a modern super middle weight, he will look average to below average in many of the listed areas.

 

Hung like a horse though, Noah Brusso.

 

While I agree with everything you said, we should be able to pick up a number of things, even on a film that is 100 years old. Things such as styles tendencies, and punch output do not change on film.

So what were Johnson's tendencies and punch output? He plays it safe. He does not throw a lot of punches. He hold and clinches a lot, and sometimes fouls by breaking on the clinch ( see Burns and Moran matches on film ).


In a modern sense, Johnson would need to completely change his offensive game. He would be booed and docked points for excessive clinching and fouling on the breaks. He would also be in there with at least 200 pound guys with far more skill than say what Ketchel, Flynn, Moran, or Willard showed us.


On defense, leaning back and having a height advantage ( in most cases ) over smaller guys worked in his day. Yes--I do think Johnson had good reflexes, and excellent punch anticipation. He was also skilled at blocking wide shots. However, he is too stationary, had a low guard, and would not have height or reach advantage in a modern setting. He would also be open to straight shots by longer armed boxers.

 

Burns was bigger in the chest than.
Corbett .2"
Johnson. 2.5"
Charles .1"
Marciano. 1"
M Spinks 2"


Bigger in the biceps than.
Fitz . 2.5"
Marciano.0.5"
Patterson.0.25"
M Spinks.1"


Bigger in the forearms than.
Corbett.2.5"
Fitz . 3.5"
Schmeling.0.25"
Braddock . 0 .5"
Louis. 1"
Charles.1"
Marciano.1"
Patterson.1"
L.Spinks.1"
M.Spinks.1"


Bigger in the neck than.
Fitz.1"
M Spinks.0.5"


Had a longer reach than.
Sullivan . 0.5"
Corbett.1.5"
Fitz.2.75"
Hart.0.5"
Johnson.0.5"
Walcott.0.5"
Charles.0.5"
Marciano.6.5"
Patterson.3.5"
Johannson.2"
Tyson.2"

All these guys would look small against modern super middleweights?atsch

Burns had a 3.75" expansion on his chest that's pretty good, a damn sight better than yours I bet.

So Burns had a bigger chest than ,
5 other heavyweight champs.
Bigger biceps than 4 others.
Bigger forearms than. 10 others.
A longer reach than 11 other champs.


You talk absolute twaddle.

 

Just like Bernard Hopkins, who has beaten elite guys for many years. He doesn't throw much, is cautious, and clinches plenty. But he wins fights even in his 40s. Tons of elite fighters throughout history, and even today, keep their hands down. But they get away with it because they are fast enough, know when to lift their hands, or when to step back, or duck, or quickly step in and smother, or fire a shot. It is an art, in part dependent on talent, in part on experience. All the newsmen said Johnson had fast feet and knew how to move about when he wanted to or had to do so. It's like Mayweather being fleet of foot but later on moving less. The footage we have of Johnson is when he decided not to move as much, but he could do it if and when he wanted to do so.

Actually, hitting in clinches or on the breaks was not a foul under straight Marquis of Queensberry rules, the rule-set under which both fighters agreed to fight. Hence, the phrase, "Protect yourselves at all times." They literally meant it in that context. It was actually considered a purer and more entertaining method of fighting. Johnson showed he could fight on the outside, but also on the inside in close, even when he had to protect himself on breaks, not like today where we have referees helping fighters out by incessantly breaking them, not allowing inside work, and forcing them to step back without punching. Ironically, it was Burns who wanted straight rules with hitting on breaks. Burns was considered an excellent infighter who nailed a lot of guys on the break. Johnson allowed him to select the rules to be used.

Consider also that your pacing is going to be different when you know you are fighting 20 rounds vs. 12. Johnson did have a slower pace, but even at his slow pace I don't think a lot of fighters today, or even necessarily Liston, could have lasted 20 rounds or performed well late in the fight. I could see Sonny's effectiveness faltering badly in the late rounds.

Johnson fought guys who were as big as him, and fought guys who were even bigger than him. When he was only around 180 pounds he was fighting 200 pounders and winning. Several of his opponents were taller and had longer reaches, but Johnson still outboxed them. Guys like Sandy Ferguson, Sam McVey, Al Kaufman, Jim Jeffries, Frank Moran, and Jess Willard weren't small guys.

 

I had no problem deadlifting 500 lbs in my teens without looking like the mother of 15.

I'm sure he would also trouble Liston, though.

 

Liston vis sparking in the 1st.

 

I deadlifted 550 at age 24 and I'm the picture of sheer masculinity, but that's not the point.

There are men stronger than the both of us who have "woman hips". ****, there they are men injecting testosterone and squatting 900 pounds who have fat wide hips. So it's silly to accuse the man of having "estrogen problem".
IMO.

But I might be wrong.

 

So most agreee Johnson takes this right? Good.