Jack Johnson vs Sonny Liston

So you have no film argument. I thought so.

No Moran was not a big guy. Next to Liston he would be small. If you want to go over Moran vs Johnson, and count the punchers thrown by Johnson in the rounds, I'l shake hands on it. I suspect you don't want to go there, because you know I'm correct on the point when I say a low punch volume guy without KO power isn't beating Sonny Liston. Moran by the way was a run in the mill White hope. He would not be in the top ten today.

I also went over Johnson's prime year of 1909. Post #13 in this thread. If you disagree with any of the points or fight that exposed Johnson, we debate that that too.

I use film, primary sources, direct quotes, and ring results. If there is something more real than that you can tell us what it is.

PS: Please tell us you are not an Alt poster.

 

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5:15 missed left by Johnson followed by clinch

5:35 missed left hook by Johnson, followed by clinch

6:11 another left jab, then two uppercuts, all landed by Johnson

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6:29 Moran missed two punches but then landed to the body

6:34 another two uppercuts by Johnson, frustrated Moran starts to attack Johnson body but his punches doesn't affect Jack.

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7:28 right hand by Moran ducked by Johnson and a counter by Jack, though not strong one

7:46 good set up to left hand by Moran, not a strong one but first that landed on Johnson chin (Johnson clowned him after)

8:04 good punch inside by Johnson

8:38 Moran tried the same shift, this time Johnson avoided it easily

9:05 agressive left by Johnson

9:14 sharp jab at the end of round by Johnson

 

Johnson and Liston have a lot more in common than we think. Patterson was a smallish Heavyweight that Liston demolished, then when faced with perhaps a not completely prime Ali, he quit on his stool and was “KOed” by a phantom punch.

Watching Johnson fights, I get the impression that he is playing with him opponents. Happy to take on smaller white men and make fun of them. He’s getting paid so so what. Even against Jeffries he tries to pin his arms behind his back...just to screw with him.

But also watching him I get the impression that he was holding waaaay back. The Ketchel fight. Ketchal drops him, he gets up immediately and just about kills him with one punch. That never happens and it suggest the he could have done that at anytime in the fight.

Lastly, I wonder how much wasted movement modern fighters would do if they had to go 40 rounds. Pretty sure they would be more patient about which shots to throw and a lot of rounds would be boring.

Joe Louis is an example of no wasted movement. He learned from fighters that fought 40 rounds in hundreds of fights. He was trained to employ mindset of conserving energy. However since he had devastating punching power and was only required to go 15 rounds he was allowed himself to throw more.

This doesn’t explain all of Johnson’s loses to smaller fighters in fairness it is likely that who he was, the promoters of his time, his opportunities to make money outside of boxing, and the times in general would contribute to how he performed or let some of his opponents perform against him.

Against Liston, Johnson has some similar attributes of Ali. Unorthodox style, leaning back from shots. I bet that Johnson hits harder than Ali and it likely faster than Liston. He would definitely be in better shape and would be the one of the strongest fighters Liston ever faced. One top of that he would be taunting and mocking Liston.

I pick Liston but not in an easy fight.

 

1908 and around that period.

 

Ok. So our proof of Jack Johnson's prime greatness is besting a 167 pound midget with birthing hips.

What, pray tell, would a prime Sonny Liston do to Tommy Burns? Would that bout even be legal?

 

Liston would likely win a decision vs Burns like he did vs Machen. And that "167 pound midget with birthing hips" was the same size as a prime RJJ with similar speed and skill.

 

I'm trying to find a reason to think Johnson goes the distance but can't find one.

 

sonny weighed 208-212 in his prime hardly a giant so the weight should not be mentioned here like an argument to win this fight

 

Moran was 6'1"203lbs 3.5lbs heavier than the best man Jeffries ever beat.

When the fight took place, before a fashionable audience at the Vélodrome d'Hiver, McKetrick saw he had been terribly mistaken about Moran's chances. It was true that Johnson was not in first-rate condition, but his superlative defense held up, and he was able to evade the dreaded Mary Ann and give Moran a severe beating without the full use of his left arm. Johnson had a rather preoccupied air, for he had heard rumors of writs and lawyers and knew but too well that this always meant trouble. And, as he feared, he was told after the fight that French police had grabbed the money and taken it away.

 

Being a low volume non puncher is a reason I think Liston would destroy Johnson. Yes, Johnson won the round I went over.

Yes

Other rounds of the fight. Most of Johnson's landing is on the inside for Moran its on the outside.