Jack Johnson vs Sonny Liston

Jaw drop. Burns with similar speed and skill to Roy Jones jr???

 

Fitzsimmons who sat ringside said Jeffries wasn't a quarter of the fighter he fought. So 25% of what Jeffries was enough to win 2 rounds ( 4 and 9 ), draw first blood, and have quite a few close rounds until gassing out in the 14th and being stoped in the 15th. According to Johnson Jeffries was strong until the end, and he waited until that point to attempt a finish. Those who watch the film prior to round 13 will see a slow paced and close match until he final rounds. If Jeffries age and inactivity for 6 years wasn't enough of a mountain to climb, Johnson hires Jeffries old trainer, Billy Delany who Jeffries very well ad barked out orders for Johnson in the fight.

 

Yes!

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I'd say 90% of boxing fans would disagree with you. Likely more. Burns doesn't have Jones speed or accuracy...not even close.

 

Burns did have more punching power and a better chin, though.

 

I don't buy that for a second. Who was the best fighter Burns stopped? 169 pound Jim Flynn who ended up stopped 26 times in his career? Bill Lang? Gunner Moir?

I'll take Virgil Hill at a fight night 185... or even the iron chinned Thomas Tate as more impressive.

 

You're just hating on Tommy Burns just like you hate on Tony Galento, Jack Johnson and Bill Brennan. I'm going to start calling you "Hatin' Seamus" since you like to hate on old time heavies. You probably think that Roy Jones, a super middle in his prime, would have beaten the above mentioned men.

 

For hating Mr. Johnson, I sure did devote a lot of time reading Pollack's 2-part series on the man.

 

I'm assuming it's a 15 rd bout. Modern rules where Johnson cant execute that clutch an grab style so I have Liston by a wide margine

 

Agreed, but I don't think he hit significantly harder than Jones. Burns came into the fight with Johnson at 168 pounds. He would have been better off in the 170s. I read stuff that said Burns had a jaundice at the time of the fight, and people at ringside said he looked yellow and sick.

Burns had guts. I got his fight with Joe Becket ( 1920 ) when Burns was 39..

 

Liston too tough for johnson..

& maybe stronger in clinch
So johnson not able to use his def/offense clinch tactic..

It's hard to hold liston since liston will use his jab to keep in range..
& then use hook, long uppercut, & straigh right

 

I doubt it

 

And interesting discussion. A lot of heat and some light.

I see Johnson as being way ahead of the field in his era. He is about the only heavyweight on film who seems to know what he is doing back then. Combining resume with film, I rate him the best prior to Joe Louis. And in the sense of how good he was versus the field in his era, he can still easily be put in the top five.

On film he looks very quick and smooth, and strong inside. He doesn't jab much, but has a good one.

That said, his record, while imposing in longevity and name opponents, seems to be a bit of a donut resume, with a hole in the middle. So many of his name opponents are either very small (Langford & Ketchel & Burns), very green (McVea & Jeannette), very washed up (Fitz & Jeff) or very mediocre (Flynn & Moran). Despite a shorter career with fewer name opponents, I think Liston has by far the more impressive wins on his ledger.

I think caution is needed in using newspaper reports on Johnson fights we haven't seen. It is hard to even gauge the hatred he stirred among some elements of the white press. So should we just accept this or that report that he was "shook" or "hurt" or "in trouble" in various fights or exhibitions? Mendoza accepts these reports at face value. I would advise more restraint. Johnson dominated opponents for years, and really was beaten clearly from about 1902 until the mid-1920's only in a close and very disputed decision loss to Hart and the finish fight with Willard. Hard to buy he was on the edge against Jack O'Brien and Gunboat Smith w/o seeing film to back that up.

As for the film of the Moran fight, Moran shows me almost nothing. Does he have a left? Moran doesn't even paw with it. He just holds it out in front. By rep he had a good right, but he more than telegraphs it. He cables it a day in advance. And everything is one punch at a time except when inside and digging to the body. Hard to imagine Moran lasting long with Liston. And why does the commentator keep saying Moran had a perfect record when he had lost quite a bit by then? Including several KO defeats.

Johnson was a great natural athlete, so perhaps he could adjust, but boxing had come a long way and I think Liston KO's him.