Jack Johnson vs. Stanley Ketchel

Ro

Robinson was offer a chance to fight Rocky Marciano. But he turn it down.

 

But, as I believe but others Maybe not, maybe Johnson had worked out something out with Ketch?
Then perhaps Stan went back and tried a crafty shot? Who knows.
I don't see Ray getting in to something like that with Marciano, hed have to fight the Rock for real.
Not something Ray could do, it wouldn't be like Jones v Ruiz for definite!

 

According Sugar Ray Robinson's autobiography, Ray and Archie Moore talked about fighting each other. As I recall, the conversation took place during the 1950s, a time when such a bout could have been very lucrative. But it appears that there wasn't a really serious attempt to stage such a bout. In addition, Ray didn't seem to be interested in fighting Ezzard Charles. In fairness, Ray probably was not big or strong enough to fight the likes of Moore, Charles and Rocky Marciano. Yes, I know that Ray did quite well while fighting Joey Maxim, but the latter didn't have as much punching power as Moore, Charles or Marciano.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Just my opinion.

The KD was not at all legit but there was also no agreement in place.

Johnson was simply taken by surprise by one of the better punches launched by Ketchel. Johnson was putting on a show for the cameras and to boost himself, clearly carrying Ketchel, playing to the crowd, looking around, enjoying every minute but more than likely becoming a bit more complacent than he should've been. No agreement would entail the beating Ketchel endured nor could Ketchel have been viewed as having "double crossed" Johnson when Jack himself was laying on the punishment thick and fast. In his hurried evasion, Johnson was clearly falling before the punch even arrived, the punch obviously slid over the back of his neck. Remember, Johnson didn't like being hit and employed all measures to avoid same.

Now I saw the films years ago well before reading any contemporary reports or even any modern day protest re the KD. Rather, it was always the same old chestnut, there was an arrangement, Ketchel double crossed and Johnson made him pay. Nice story but it never added up. The KD always looked wrong, never legit. Now availed of contemporary reports, I've read that a good number of spectators and reporters present also held the belief the KD wasn't legit, and this belief remained in place. No doubt Johnson was well and truly ticked off but I think his sudden loss of composure and balance would've been enough for Lil Arthur to end proceedings forthwith.

Johnson arose slowly to feign hurt or, at the least, to keep Stanley guessing. Ketchel knew he didn't connect or at least not sufficiently to score a KD, so he had to be wondering what was going on and what was going to happen next. Ketchel appears worried, looking to his corner several times before Johnson arises. Ketchel does not barrel in so much as Johnson, who launches a powerful right uppercut from a semi erect position. As I see it, a single punch did it. He misses a follow up which causes him to fall. This was no legacy of being hurt and/or dizzy. Just a simple loss of balance. Even the perfect technician, Joe Louis, fell a few times when he missed, such was his desire to take his opponent's head off.

Post KD of Ketchel, I do see concern on Johnson's face, as well as on his cornerman's face (standing on the ring apron to Johnson's left) as the count is being tolled. Ketchel went down as if shot and appeared dead and fighters could be charged with manslaughter. back in the day Given such a scenario, multiply the risk factor for a negro fighter of the day, then multiply the risk factor again for one as hated as Johnson was.

Now this may be only because of the limitations of my knowledge but I have never read any reference to the KD by Ketchel himself, as one might expect if he had scored a legit KD over the HW Champ, no less. At the very least. some sort of comment just for bragging rights and/or lamenting how close he came to winning the title. IMO, that lack of comment re same from Ketchel is more than curious. Rather, after they fought, I've only ever read Ketchel wax lyrical about Johnson's abilities and punch. Perhaps someone else has read Ketchel commenting on the KD.

People who want to bang on Johnson's chin pivot heavily on this purported KD by Ketchel. Of course there is also the Choynski stoppage which is a bit murky. At any rate, Choynski's inferior weight is often highlighted whilst overlooking Johnson's own estimated weight which was likely little more than Joe's and probably worse for Johnson in terms of his being well under what should've been his natural weight. In very early photos, Lil Arthur could look downright emaciated.

Anyway, it will always remain an iconic moment in boxing history to chew over.

 

One benefit of watching Johnson fights regardless if there is action or not is his safety first footwork. He was always in a safe spot to bail and spoil. I like it.

While the gloves may have changed we can still learn a thing or two about slipping, parrying and using the legs to get out of danger especially from a man who had to fight so undesirably, fixated on holding onto the belt.

I imagine Johnson would never have received a rematch if he lost his title young and so Lil Arthur used every possible means boring or no to climb to the throne and keep his arse from sliding off it lest the most hated man in America may have found himself like so many other of his ebony skinned brothers without two dimes to rub together and only memories of victory to quiet an unfed stomach.

 

Many times jack repeated that nobody hit him so hard as ketchel and that he was lucky as punch landed inch over the button.

 

At one point Johnson hits Ketchel a little too hard and as Ketchel begins to fall grabs him and stands him on his feet,another time he has him groggy and lets him off the hook.Johnson knew that the further the fight went and the more competitive it looked, the greater the rewards would be from the motion picture rights.
Jack was walking a tightrope,imo allowing Stanley to look good and still giving him enough punishment to prevent him from getting too ambitious.
I think he could have taken Ketchel out early had he been so inclined and had there been a financial incentive to do so, as I recall Johnson predicted a ko after the 10th rd and before 14th rd.
I would have to look that up in Pollack's book to confirm it though.

 

That’s a very good point, Johnson always did ref. the KD as if it was legit - never said otherwise -but I think he mainly afforded Choynski as having landed the hardest punch on him - no matter - the crux of the point is that he did attest to the power of Ketchel’s punch anyway.

I could say sometimes Johnson gilded the lily - years after the fact he did claim he took a dive v Willard. But we know why he claimed that - for much needed $$$.

If he did deliberately drop v Ketchel, say for the film, I couldn’t see too much harm in admitting same years later and restoring confidence in his durability - it wouldn’t have been like admitting to throwing a fight and perverting the ultimate outcome - as we know, Jack got back up and sparked Stanley in the next few seconds.

There is suggestion that Johnson might’ve “trained” for a fake KD in sparring sessions with Gunboat Smith prior to the fight. Though old, the film is reasonably viewable and from that I deduce the punch didn’t land - but Johnson’s own acknowledgement that it did cannot be dismissed out of hand.

I’ll say this, if Johnson did feel the punch as he described and it caused the KD, notwithstanding Ketchel being a hard puncher at MW, I would strongly question Johnson’s chin.

However, if his chin was so fragile - even despite Johnson’s defensive skills averting most punches - one still might’ve expected more KDs suffered and outright KO losses in Johnson’s career - as Johnson’s record actually stands - his whiskers seemed fine.

 

Can you provide a primary source for this please?

 

GunBoat Smith sparred with both Ketchel and Johnson for their fight,and in a taped interview he said the KD of Johnson was faked . Source. In This Corner by Peter Heller.

 

You are correct about a rd range being specified. In respect of betting lines, it’s claimed that Johnson advised friends and associates not to bet under or over the rds in question.

 

The alleged KD of Johnson by Gunboat in sparring is tied in with all that - said KD claimed to be a practiced, choreographed move for the Ketchel fight. Did Smith link that to his belief the KD was fake? I think he always legitimately owned putting Johnson down in sparring but claimed the Ketchel KD was fake all the same.

Ah, what a tangled web those old timers could weave - LOL. Must get myself another copy (orig. lost) of Heller’s book - that was a great read.