Jack johnson

Except for the fact, respectfully, that you are no Johnson scholar and choose to simply ignore the depth of talent he fought and defeated prior to fighting Burns ... I'll leave that to the top Johnson guys like McVey and Apollack to detail ...

 

I would say I have read half a dozen books by, on or focused primarily on Johnson, and many more articles, contemporary accounts and books with discussions on Johnson. I am a hobbyist.

But then, I also have no grandstanding interest in promoting and inflating his legend, whether that promotion be implicit or explicit.

Regarding that talent pre-Burns, I do not think one can bury our collective heads in the sand regarding his opposition. He beat no seasoned, highly accomplished, prime fighters who would be considered heavyweights in today's era. Langford is a great name. I claim him to be in the top 3 pound for pound ever. But he was a small middleweight when Johnson thrashed him. McVea was green as a spring shoot. Jeanette had a mere handful of fights. Sandy Ferguson was a serviceable heavy but not a great. Gardener was middle. Choynski... well, we know what happened there.

Furthermore, I hear much talk of this mythical 210 pound giant known as Johnson. However, he really didn't do much at over 200 pounds but beat a few slobs, middleweights and a shell of a once great fighter. His best victories were at 192 and below, which strains the credence of comparisons to modern heavies.

 

Didn't McVea and Jeanette had plenty of fights under their belt to warrant them being quality wins... In fact, they did well against your boy Sam before jack beat one of them.. The fact is, Johnson didn't just beat them... he beat them ALL VERY EASILY... Something neither of them could do to one another... That speaks volumes how much ahead of them Johnson was... U think giving same 20 more pounds of pudge.. somehow makes him some huge threat to Johnson? I don't agree...

 

Just about everybody who was around back then sure seemed to think so. VERY much so, in fact.

You're not giving Sam his due here. He packed on a heckuva lot more than "pudge" as he rose in weight. His power increased significantly as the poundage increased. You think the little 156 lb Sam who fought Johnson could have knocked Harry Wills stiff with a single punch the same way he did later on (when he got bigger and more powerful)? No way.

 

Last time I looked, welters stopped at 147lbs.

 

Johnson signed to fight Jeannette at least twice whilst champion, the fight was pulled by the authorities. McVey displayed no interest in going in with Johnson for a 4th time. Johnson was very reluctant to defend against Langford , but agreed to do so ,or anyone else for $30,000,,The NSC offered only £3,000.

Barney Curley ,and Tex Rickard both stated there was no money to be made in promoting a Johnson,Langford fight in the US,or any other title fight that involved "two ******s". There was a lot of talk about Johnson defending against Langford in Australia ,or France , but it never got beyond talk. But you already know this.

Bottom line. Johnson only defended against midgets who had jaundice, and comebacking has -beens who had to lose 200lbs in 6weeks..All his opponents before winning the title were toughman entrants .

 

if you listen to enough fans you will come to the conclusion that all fighters suck

 

I didnt get to finish watching the Ringside episode on Joe Louis.
They remarked how Jack Johnson didnt support Louis, and maybe
was in a way jealous and hateful towards Louis. Thoughts?

 

McVey, who had 50 some fights and 14 years left in his career after his last fight with Johnson (when Sam had less than a dozen fights under his belt), displayed no interest in Johnson?

Actually I think Sam and Jack signed to fight in '12 but Johnson backed out and fought Flynn instead. I'll have to check my sources but I think that's how it went down.

 

Johnson signed to fight Billy Wells in 1912 but the UK authorities stopped the fight happening. Johnson agreed to fight anyone for $30,000 McVey's people could not come up with a deposit of good faith to ensure the fight took place this was in 1914. McVey did not fight in the states from 1907 -1914. There was no public demand for the fight . Johnson ,and Mcvey were close friends, and travelling companions. McVey seconded Johnson in several fights includiong his loss to Willard.
Johnson paid for McVey's funeral.

Look forward to more info on this subject from you.

 

The NYT sure makes it seem he shelved a McVea bout in favor of a Flynn bout in the States...

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70F15F73A5813738DDDAE0894D9405B828DF1D3

Understandable as McVea had beaten Langford, Lester, Jim Johnson and Bill Lang over the previous year while the pudgy Flynn was on a roll against scrubs.

Meanwhile, Tom Andrews had a contract signed by Johnson to fight McVey and Langford in Australia which Johnson chose to ignore, saying he was retired... all the while training for a fight with Flynn.

As far as the financial reward of any of this, Johnson had not fought in 18 months, so he was making NO money. And his next fight would be his infamous 10 rounder against Johnson in Paris. It doesn't seem like he had a lot of options.

 

The Flynn fight was $$$ for old rope,McVey or Langford would have been a far sterner proposition,and unless Jack was in the shape he was for Jeffries, extremely risky, especially a Langford match imo.
It's not generally reported but Mcvey knocked Langford down in their 1911 Aussie fight.

Johnson took the easy match, which also happened to make the most dough .

Barney Curley was not only the promoter, he was Flynn's manager at the time, the win over Morris allowed Curley to propel Flynn back in to the picture.

Tales of Johnson being offered up to $100,000 to defend against Langford or Jeannette are BS,imo. Thanks very much for the link interesting stuff.Which contradicts my earlier statement.:good

 

I'm not condemning Johnson for taking the easy road. If I were to do that, I would have to dump on damn near every heavy champ down the line.

It's understandable if Johnson did it moreso than those who followed. Johnson had to run around the globe and fight a brand of prejudice we can only imagine just to get a sniff of the belt. He probably shot his wad, mentally, psychically, patience-wise, in that pursuit. He can hardly be blamed for taking a paycheck or two (a la Ketchell) after that and enjoying the high life.

But that said, he never fought the best version of McVey. In the end, I don't think any but a very lucky version of McVey, finding him on an off night (which he was known to have) beats him.

 

Come on Bat... have you seen the pictures... your telling me some of that wasn't pudge? It most certainly was... The best win of his career was beating Gans... that was BEFORE this acclaimed superhuman boost he got from 20+ pounds. Sure, it gave him more pop and probably made him a little more resilent in taking punches from HW... Yet, all that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't allow him to beat Johnson. As Sam gained weight.. so did Johnson... That cancels one another out.. what we are left with is Johnson EASILY thrashing Sam when they both weighed less.

 

I think old Jackie Boy "shot his wad" most nights,sometimes several times.
Johnson always said of his three black nemesis's McVey was the one he feared,I think its BS ,he had the measure of Sam but, as you say, he never met a prime version,and by 1912 Johnson was not "prime" himself. ps Johnson did sign to fight Harry Wills ,not sure why it did not come off.