Jack Johnson ....

Johnson would pose major headaches for any great heavyweight, from any era, of that I've no doubt. He'd be champ in a fair few. Johnson definitely belongs amongst the top 10 of all-time.


Ps: Terrific posts janitor, and nice mention of McVea. To have beaten a fighter of McVea's calibre in the decisive manner that Johnson did: not only once, nor twice, but thrice for me speaks volumes. He definitely deserves a place above both Jefferies and Dempsey in my book.

 

I have him at #9, but he probably deserves even higher. Don't know who he could/should unsurp from those directly ahead of him, though: of whom I've got:

6. Liston
7. Frazier
8. Tyson

 

4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. Joe Frazier

That´s where i have him.

 

Fair rating. I take it you have Marciano at #3? Interesting that Jefferies is your #7 What about Tyson and Holy? If you have Dempsey and Foreman out of the top 10 that's a good call. :yep

 

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. Mike Tyson
9. Jack Johnson
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Jim Jefferies
12. George Foreman
13. Harry Wills
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Riddick Bowe

 

I thought I'd start an open discussion on Johnson’s title defense opponents.

Let's examine who the opponent was, what his record was, and how many times he was Ko'd prior and after the title match, and how the match itself went down.

Johnson won the title from 5'7" Burns. Burns of coruse was sick from a fever, and well under his normal weight at 168 pounds. Burns begged promtoer HD McCintosh to delay the match, the the promtoer said all the tickets were sold.

Johnson's first official title defense was a 6 round affair ( why not 15 or or at least 10? ) vs Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was a very good middle weight who was perhaps a bit long in the tooth in terms of bouts fought. His record coming into the fight was 129 wins, 7 losses and 21 ND/ Draws.

Clearly O'Brien was a worthy title opponent. The weights of the fighters were O'Brien at 161 pounds, and Johnson at 205 pounds. Johnson had a 44 pound weight advantage. Johnson failed to score one knockdown. The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, O'Brien could have won. After this fight, O'Brien was blown away by Ketchel. I am not impressed with Johnson’s skill or power in this fight. He was the heavyweight. To be shown up and embarrassed by a good middleweight is not the mark of greatness. News Paper reports suggest that O"brien was better by a shade, and his speed and quickeness had little trouble fininding their mark on Johnson's vaulted defense.

Johnson's second title defense was vs Ross. Ross was a " bum " who came into the fight with an 11-9-2 record. Arguably the worst record of any man to receive a lineal title shot. To make matters worse Ross's ring record leading up to the fight was an abysmal 0-5 with two ND's. How or why he got a title shot remains a mystery. If someone asks you who was the worst heavyweight contender ever to get a title shot, Ross is good name to throw out. Indeed Ross was Ko'd 4 times before meeting Johnson, and 5 times after meeting Johnson. Johnson beat Ross easily enough, but could you imagine what top champion does to a guy like this?

Johnson's third title defense was vs Kaufman. Kaufman was a stiff " White Hope ", but he did have a good ring record of 20-1 coming into the match. He was only Ko'd once prior top the match by O'Brien, which was the best fighter he fought in his first 21 fights. Johnson easily defeated Kaufman but could not score a knock down. However it was clear that Kaufman was in fact a fraud. Indeed, he was badly knocked out 4 times after this match.

Johnson's fourth title match was vs Middle Weight champ Stanley Ketchel Ketchel had a nice record of 51-3-4 coming into the match, but he was only 5'9" and 170 Pounds. Johnson weighed in at 205. This meant that Johnson had a 35 pound advantage in weight. Ketchel had a proven chin at middle weight. Indeed he was only knocked out once. The first 11 rounds of the fight were mostly a boring affair. I do agree that Johnson played a bit with Ketchel, however things got inserting in the 12th round. Ketchel floored Johnson. Johnson was hurt and shaken up, but got up and scored his best Ko on film, but fell down himself during the process. Ketchel was out like a light. Yet Ketchel as a middle weight floored and hurt Johnson with basically the first solid punch he landed during the fight. This has to make me question Johnson’s chin, which in previous fights could be exposed by power punchers.

Johnson's fifth title match was vs. Jeffries. Jeffires retired undefeated as the champ, cleaning almost every good fighter in his entire era. Jeffries was 35 years old when the match happened. He was in-active for 6 years, which is a career for some fighters, and lost 100 pounds of fat to get into shape. Never in boxing history has a man been in-active this long and come back to be champion. Johnson was wary of Jeffires early and often clinched. The first four rounds were likely 2-2 on the cards. Jeffries started running out of gas as early as round 5. He was visibly slower than he was in his prime yet he managed to cut Johnson, and nearly knocked Johnson down from body shots of the mid to late rounds of the fight. I have a source if people want to see this. Johnson moved in for the kill after several one sided rounds. Jeffries did not quit or foul out like Johnson did in the past. He gave it his best under the circumstances, and went out on his shield. IMO, this fight is what Johnson’s legacy is mainly based on because Jeffries was a legendary fighter in his own time. Jeffries was the only really good heavyweight that Johnson beat during his title reign. At least on paper. The match meant little in a boxing sense as many great old champions often lose fights when they are past their primes. Think Louis vs Marciano, or Ali vs Holmes.

Johnson's sixth match was vs Fireman Flynn. Flynn had a record of 29-8 with 14 ND's or draws. He was Ko'd 5 times in prior to the match and 15 times after this match! Johnson failed to floor Flynn. The fight ended when Johnson would hold Flynn's head, and then hit him, while Flynn would foul with head butts. The official result in a dismal match should read Johnson win via DQ in 8.

Johnson's seventh title defense was a sham. He fought black Journeyman Jim " battling " Johnson. Jim Johnson had a very suspect record of 14-12-3 coming into the match. Jim Johnson was Ko'd twice prior to the match and 5 more times after the match. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds of boxing. The action was boring. Johnson hurt his arm in the third round, then flat out quit. Somehow, the fight was ruled a draw and Jack Johnson kept his title! Under modern times, this is a TKO loss for Jack Johnson, and Jim Johnson becomes the new champion. News reads say Battlign Jim was getting the better, and alomst had Johnson out.

Johnson's eight title match was vs a very mediocre Frank Moran. Moran had a 25-9-4 record coming into this fight. He was Ko'd twice before this fight, and five times after the fight. The fight was shockingly close. Like many of Johnson's other title fights there were no knockdowns. I saw a good 30 minutes of high light action that included most of the rounds. Johnson seemed to barely edge Moran.

Johnson’s final title match vs vs giant Jess Willard. Willard was not very fast or skilled, but he could punch, was durable, and was in his prime. His record was a fair one at 23-5-1. Johnson was older at 37, but Willard himself was no spring chicken at 34. Johnson's weight for this fight was 205, which lower than all of his title fights save one. Eventually Willard's durability and stamina won the day. Johnson slowed down, and then Willard knocked him out with one solid punch. I don't hold this loss against Johnson due to his age, but consider that Willard was likely Johnson's most formidable title opponent.

Summary: Johnson in his title reign only scored two Ko's They were vs a middle weight and a washed up old x champ. As I chronicled many of the fighters were knocked out before or after facing Johnson, yet Johnson himself failed to score KO or knockdowns. Johnson drew with a middle weight and did not look good ( O' Brien ). He was knocked down by another middle weight. ( Ketchel ) . He quit vs a near .500 fights and drew but should have lost via TKO ( Battling Jim Johnson ) Johnson gave title shots to bums. ( take your pick between Ross, Flynn and Kaufman ) Although he was older, he got Ko'd by his toughest title match opponent in Willard.

While Jack Johnson was champ, top fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Luther McCarthy, Gunboat Smith, Sam McVey and Jack Dillon were not offered title shots. The money was up for Langford, Jeanette, and McVey to the tune of 30=50K. Basically, Johnson did not offer shots to the 6 best contenders out there, men who were far more formidable than ANY Johnson title defense opponent in the era, save Willard. And let's be honest, Willard was not as a good as Langford, Jeanette, or McVey. And Gunboat who TKO'd Johnson in sparring ( Please no reply on this segement MvCey ) cleanly beat Willard.

As a title defense run, I rate Johnson's the weakest of all the great champions. Far below Jeffries, Dempsey’s, Louis’, Marciano’s, Patterson’s Ali’, Holmes’, Tyson’s, and Lewis’. I continue to believe that Johnson ring prowess pre 1906 was over rated and his title reign was a lack luster run vs fighters who were too small, to old, or simply journeyman.

While Johnson did defeat McVey, Jeanette, and Langford, historians who research the dates & records will see McVey was a teenager, Jeanette had a losing record when he first meet Johnson ( yet was pertty close to even in the series ) and Langford was but 156 pounds.

The truth is, the highest distingusihed fighters Johsnon meet pre Burns all deafeated him....Choynski, Griffin and Hart. Of coruse as a group Choynski, Griffin, and Hart were not as good as McVey, Jeanette or Langford. So why did Choyhski, Griffin or Hart defeat Johnson?

The awswer is elementary. Choysnki, Griffin and Hart were close to their peaks when Johnson meet them. They were not teenagers like McVey was. they had many fights with winning records unlike Jeanette. And they all had a ton of heavyweight expeirnce, unlike Langford.

I have seen every flimed fight on Johnson. I think he had a great uppercut, good hand speed, and clinched well, but he's also one of the most over rated guys I've seen on flim.

 

Well, Jeffries was unbeaten till his fight to Johnson and we all know how much past he was then. He beat very good to great fighters while beeing not that experienced. Dempsey is out, Formen my number ten, Tyson number eleven and Holy at 16 - i know a bit low but i can´t justify rating him above the guys i have in front of him.

Well, look for yourself:

01. Muhammad Ali
02. Joe Louis
03. Rocky Marciano
04. Larry Holmes
05. Lennox Lewis
06. Jack Johnson
07. Jim Jeffries
08. Joe Frazier
09. Harry Wills
10. George Foreman
11. Mike Tyson
12. Jack Dempsey
13. Sonny Liston
14. Max Schmeling
15. Sam Langford
16. Evander Holyfield
17. Floyd Patterson
18. Jersey Joe Walcott / Ezzard Charles
20. Jim Corbett

 

I have him in my own top ten, probably about 8 or 9.

I've always considered his best attribute to be his dominance in the clinch. His physical strength and crafty moves, his defence and his ability to frustrate and dodge opponents, his sharp counterpunches...just a real awkward bugger to handle.

I can think of some well-regarded big hitters that would find him unbelievably irritating to fight.