Jack Johnson's 5 Greatest Performances

Meh what a shitty opening post.

Honesty would be better "i think johnson is ****, convince me otherwise"

Regarding historical context his top 5 absolutely have to be

Jeffries
Burns
Langford
Jeanette
Mcvey

Depending on who deserved the victory against hart that would be up there. Honourable mentions to ketchel, martin, flynn and fitz also.

 

:thumbsup

Spot on... It's very difficult to compare eras that span 30 years.. let alone 100... Just because you don't like the boxing skill of the time Seamus.. that is how poeple fought back then. That was the main style of that era... In such a time with everybody fighting that way.. johnson was the best. Period. If Johnson was born 40 yeras later... you don't think his combination of reflexes, speed, power, stamina & Defense would've carried over and he would've used some of the "techniques" you seem to think carry all the weight in the world? Do you honestly think he still would've fought like we see on film or would he have fought much like the people of that era?

 

Actually, most from the time had the same questions. The game was said to have regressed from the times of Sullivan, Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries and co.

 

It´s not about your ranking. It´s about how and what you write about him and his era - not just here but overall. It´s quite obvious that you have a low opinion of both. Despite your ranking. Read you posts, it´s obvious you are hating in the sense that you don´t pay espect and ae degrading his era.

Your fault is that you can´t o don´t wanna see the context of his fights.

Under turn of the century rules? Yeah, they are at least 50/50 then. Like I said, context. You like the post transition era boxing. No fault with that but you should be intelligent enough to recognize that you can´t look and judge the transition era fighters by the standards of modern boxing. They had different gear, rules, possibilities and standard. That needs to be kept in mind. Like I said, context. You are not doing that and thus end up "hating".

 

You are the one banging on about the size of his opponents not me.

I just rebutt you.

Lets look at it another way. Who should Johnson have fought that he did not?
Mendacity thinks Johnson should have fought Gunboat Smith who after beating Billy Wells was asked when he would meet Johson and replied ",Oh Johnson will wait and the longer he waits the better".
Smith was in no rush to fight Johnson as he himself stated ,he knew who the real champ was.
Smith had a purple patch of about a year then he went down hill fast.

Smth usually scaled in the high 170's low 180's.

Ludicrously Mendacity states Jack Dillon was avoided by Johnson.
Dillon was still a middleweight as late as 1914,[he turned pro in1908 ,the year Johnson became champ].

Dillon met his first heavyweight in1914 ,Jim Flynn and could only manage a draw with him,this was just 16 months before Johnson lost his title to Willard. Flynn was totally out of his depth in 2 tries with Johnson.
I wonder what Mendacity would say if Johnson had defended against the 5' 7" 160lbs Dillon In 1914?
Another candidate Mendacity thinks Johnson should have met was Kid Norfolk.
Norfolk eventually became a great fighter ,but he had his first fight in 1910 and in the next 2 years had only 9 fights ,losing 5 of them .Up until 1915 when Johnson lost his title ,the only heavyweight Norfolk had fought was Black Bill who beat him over 4 rds. Black Bill fought Johnson 4 times losing them all and, being stopped twice.

Norfolk was 5' 8" and as late as May 1915 only scaled 174lbs when he lost to Jeff Clark, this was a month after Johnson had been dethroned by Willard.
Again Mendacity would castigate Johnson for defending against such easy meat, had the fight really happened.
My point is you are unimpressed by Johnson opponents, then tell me, apart from Langford ,whom he undoubtedly avoided in later years, but had thrashed once before.[ who btw was 5'6" and 175 lbs at his best],who should Johnson have met that he didn't?
You can only beat what's around. As Wlad has proved.
Spotty performances?
Johnson fought O Brien under a 6rds no decion rule, Johnson could not lose unless he was stopped ,as O Brien was a hit and getaway merchant, with allmost zero power that prospect was extremely unlikely ,Johnson was all too aware of this and did not train for the fight, he was out partying the night before the bout.
Was the shitty fight Johnson 's fault ? Yes, although O Brien was never a crowd pleaser at the best of times,did Johnson give a ****? No, he was on a guaranteed purse and cynically did nothing to exert himself.

The Hart fight was a big time mistake on Johnson's part he landed more punches and probably should have gotten the decision ,acording to 3 of the foremost papers of the time,. but he should not have left the decision in any doubt, his fault.

I don't think Jeffries would have defended against him if he had beaten Hart into the ground and then knocked him clean out of the ring,[he nearly put him out early on], but he made it easy for Jeffries to avoid him and retire after defending against the hopeless Munroe a couple of months before.
I don't see how an underwhelming performance against Jim Johnson, when he was 35 and suffering a broken arm can be Johnson's fault.:huh

 

If I was defending my position on those fights ,I would say that he was not a heavyweight for one of the fights, was 20lbs below his prime weight for the other and carried the 170pounder for the 12 rds ,during . which a very suspicious kd occurred .
However I am not defendng them because I don't class them as his best performances .
As my first post said I think Johnson's best performances were probably pre title and not only against other men, but not viewed by anyone who has been alive in the last half a century.
The only exception to the former would be his last title defence against Willard, which I would put in my 5.
Ps Your agenda appears to be the same as Mendacity's, maybe just a little less obvious?

 

My list probably looks something like this:

1. Jeffries fight
2. Ketchel fight
3. Burns fight
4. Flynn fight
5. Willard fight

On film, of course.

 

Well actually Johnson was to fight Jeanette in NY in 1912. All signed and sealed. Then the NYS “commissioner” canceled the bout stating he “saw no reason to have two black fighters fight for the heavyweight championship”. Once the bout was canceled Johnson went out west to NM to face Flynn.

 

Surprised the Martin fights aren't getting more consideration.

 

I would say...

Sam McVey 1903 (2nd) WR20.
Sam McVey 1904 KO20.
Joe Jeanette 1906 WR15.
Tommy Burns 1908 W14.
James J. Jeffries 1910 KO15.

 

Despite the usual hostile audience, his 5 round knockout of Jack Jeffries is significant.
It certainly made an impact on the loser’s brother, Jim, helping in his corner.
It must have been a devastating performance, as it drained any desire out of Jeff, to avenge his fallen brother!