Jack Johnson's Aborted Two Tries At Defending HIs Title Against Jeannette

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Sep 5, 2020.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Because of reports stating the New York Commission would not allow Jack to fight there, Johnson who was in Chicago made the following statement about beginning his training" " I don't care about doing all that hard work for nothing..the MacMahon brothers will have to show me a letter from the Commission before I go into training. When the match was made the promoters told me they had everything fixed with the commission, but according to reports from the east there is a screw loose somewhere. I honestly don't believe I ever will be allowed to fight in this country again. Whenever my name is mentioned in connection with a fight in any part of the country the ministers and reformers immediately get busy with the governor, with the result thst there will be nothing done for Jack Johnson. Take it from me, i will not start training until I am shown my fight with Jeannette can take place as scheduled."
    On August 22nd the MacMahon brothers who were the promoters for the scheduled September 25th 1912 fight met with the New York State Athletic Commission. After the meeting Edward MacMahon spoke: "There has been adverse criticism about this match and the commissioners apparently do not want it to be held. Thst is why we are calling it off. For the betterment of the sport the commissioners do not want Jack Johnson to appear in a match in New York City."
    Jeannette:" I was devastated. I was so close to finally getting my shot. Now it wasn't Johnson stopping me it was the state Boxing commission, which through it's hatred of Johnson, was denying me my title shot.
    State Commissioner O'Neil stated: The Commission decided some time ago that Jack Johnson would not be permitted to fight here. We believe now and we did then, that the presence of Johnson in a ring contest in this state would be inimical to the best interests of boxing."
    I hope this puts to bed the idea Johnson was not willing to defend his crown against Jeannette?
    Although one poster will surely not accept it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  2. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Bumped!
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  4. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nobody want to say Johnson didn't want the fight?
     
  5. Sangria

    Sangria You bleed like Mylee Full Member

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    A speckle of Dempsey-Wills in there, perhaps. I don't know, just throwing that in the mix.

    Who do you feel wins Johnson-Jeannette if it did take place in New York?
     
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Over the ten rounds distance proposed, Johnson,I see no basis for picking Jeannette if Johnson was in shape.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
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  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    To be brief, as champion Johnson could have fought Jeannette in many places of the world. Why not move the fight out of New York? Tell us Mcvey. Johnson didn't want to do that, he used it as an excuse. In France they wanted to strip Johnson of his title. That's a fact.

    Johnson pulled out of a signed contract in 1909 fight Langford as champion. Fact. His word means zero. He ran like a dog. If you sign a contract, you should follow through. Don't you agree?

    " When Jack became champion he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against his own people " - Joe Jeannette

    Later on Jack Dempsey used the same trick, knowing he could sign to fight Wills and the New York State Athletic Commission would not take the fight. It was for show, anyone with a brain could see that. Do you want that thread next, Mcvey? I think not.

    This proves nothing outside of Johnson a champion never fought his top competition. Numerous offers in the press were there 50k, 100k to fight Langford, Jeannette and Mcvea. No fights. Only business decisions to fight bad, old, or small white hopes for the most part, in fights Johnson was exposed in victory vs a very weak group of title opponents or drew.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    1.Before you can fight anywhere you need a promoter prepared to promote it!
    2.You need a promoter prepared to meet your price for a defence,in Johnsons case $30,000.
    3.To offer that a promoter must be reasonably sure he will cover that purse ,and the opponents,the expense of the arena, etc
    4.For your statement to be true you need to provide primary sourced information that a promoter/promoters were willing to put that fight on in alternative location,and to meet Johnson's stated asking price for a title defence of $30,000.
    5.The only offer which fulfilled those terms which anyone has ever been able to unearth was by Victor Breyer for a fight in Paris,this met Johnson's purse demand of $30,000 but stipulated the fight be over 30rds and was made via telegram on July4th 1912 the day Johnson defended his title against Jim Flynn and received $31.500 for doing so.
    6.Prior to the Flynn fight a telegraphed challenge was also read out in the ring ,it was from Jeannette guaranteeing Johnson $20,000 to defend against himself whether Jeannette had the $20,000 or not it beside the point,the point is the offer was $10,000 short of Johnson's asking price for a title defence.
    7. A telegram was also read out in the ring from the McMahon Brothers offering Johnson $20,000 for a NY defence against Jeannette,it was this offer suitably improved to $,30,000 that Johnson subsequently accepted.
    8.The French boxing Federation stripped Johnson of their recognition in1913 when he fought Battling Jim Johnson in Paris,they declared they would recognize the winner of a contest between Langford and Jeannette as their champion this contest was held the day after the JohnsonvJohnson title fight ,with Langford being declared the winner.Two weeks after their decision to withdraw Championship recognition from Johnson ,they reversed their decision and reinstated Johnson as champ.I doubt anybody noticed either way!
    9.In March 1908 Burns was offered $5000 to defend against Johnson in London.Jim Coffroth offered $25,000
    to be divided by both men ,the fight to be held in California.
    10.March 13th 1908 The New York Sun reported offers for Johnson to fight Jeannette no cash numbers were mentioned.
    11.March17th St Patricks Day Burns ko'd Jem Roche in1 rd in Dublin. Burns scaled 168lbs the same weight he would weigh when he defended against Johnson 9 months later.
    12. French promoters offered Burns $20,000 to defend against McVey Burns requested $20,000 with McVey to get$5000 with a side bet of $5000 it was not accepted.
    13 The National Sporting Club offered Burns £2,500 /$12,500 for Burns to defend against Johnson.Burns stated he wanted$30,000 ,no deal.
    14.Jack Curley made some noise about promoting a Burnsv Johnson fight on Labor Day in Nevada, Burns to get his price of$30,000 but when called on it by Burns he did not reply newspaper talk.
    15 In October 1908 Johnson signed to fight Langford in London for the NSC the fight to take place on or about Feb22nd 1909Johnson to receive $5000.
    16 .Johnson then signed to fight Burns in Australia for $5000 Burns to get $30,000.
    17.After Johnson won the title he decided he would not defend it for less than Burns had got to face him ie $30,000 He informed the NSC of this and they refused to up their offer,so Johnson did not honour the contract.
    Now after giving you the background I would like you to address my point in no5.

    nb JEANNETTE himself blamed the NYAC not Johnson for the fight not happening.
    In plain terms .
    PRODUCE A VERIFIED OFFER OF $30,000 FOR JOHNSON TO DEFEND HIS TTILE AGAINST EITHER JEANETTE,LANGFORD,McVEY WITH THE PROMOTERS NAME AND THE LOCATION.PRODUCE ONE SUCH OFFER THAT JOHNSON REFUSED TO ACCEPT. I'VE ASKED YOU TO DO THIS MANY, MANY TIMES AND YOU NEVER HAVE ,SO NOW IM ASKING YET AGAIN..PROVIDE PRIMARY SOURCED PROOF OF OFFERS FOR JOHNSON TO GET$30,000 AGAINST ANY OF THOSE THREE THAT HE DECLINED.
    YOU SAY THERE WERE NUMEROUS OFFERES SO IT SHOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO DO THIS!
    A $30,000 PURSE.
    B NAME OF PROMOTER.
    C.LOCATION OF FIGHT.
    I'M WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY AND PLEASE, NO MORE BS, JUST VERIFIED FACTS PROVING YOUR CASE !

    NB Jeannette was never a friend of Johnson's he took every opportunity to knock him stating before the Johnson v Jeffries fight that Jeffries would kill Johnson,so much for Black solidarity! Jeannette also claimed that he weighed just 165lbs for his last fight with Johnson total BS.

    Jack Dempsey defended his title against Tunney in Philadelphia because the NYAC refused Dempsey a licence over Dempsey's refusal to defend against Wills so you got that completely arse about face!

    ps As to honouring agreements ,you did not honour yours when we bet whether the Fitzsimmons v Ruhlin fight was filmed or not. I said it was not and gave proof via two statements from authors and two fight film buffs on here.You weaselled out of the bet by saying that since a re-enactment was made because the camera failed to operate on the day of the real fight, that re-enactment constituted the fight being filmed and you used this pitiful excuse to renege on our bet.
    It is therefore the height of irony for you to be disparaging about someone else's principles when you have no moral compass yourself!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
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  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    @ mcvey, your an idiot. Just tell me why the Johnson vs Jeannette fight could not be moved out of NY? Well? Lots of offers were out there to fight Langford, Jeannette and Mcvey, yet not one of them worked out. This includes offers in Australia by HD McIntosh, the man who promoted Johnson vs Burns. Do you really believe that Johnson was that unlucky, or can you see he never wanted these fights in the first place, perfering Fireman Flynn or Tony Ross types! Johnson already backed out of a signed contract to fight Langford. His word, like yours means nothing at all. His own manager said this.

    The London Bridge is for sale. Before buying it, be sure to jump off from the top to test the waters.

    Spraying the board with some unrelated facts is your way of saving face. Hint hint, you have none left.

    The facts are Johnson was an all-time ducker and had one of the worst title runs in history ( We all agree here on that ) , not only ducking the best out there but by getting exposed by Ketchel ( Down and hurt ). Also being exposed in two draws one of which he would have been knocked out had it been longer than 10 rounds, the other a much smaller man 40 pounds less, outboxed him according to primary sources. There's also Gunboat Smith, a novice who TKO'd him in his prime in 1909. Then, of course, Johnson lies about the Willard fight, saying it was a fix. All of the above are facts, Tony. Spamming unrelated stuff doesn't absolve the above.

    It's so funny you don't understand the NYAC was never going to approve Dempsey vs. Willis.

    Your two favorite heavyweight are all-time duckers.Both were Ko'd early and fought dirty. At least Dempsey didn't beat up women and the sick. That was Johnson's MO.

    You honor nothing. You're a bet welsher. Fitz vs. Ruhlin was filmed. That was the bet. Not if it came out of can be viewed today, and no distinction of a re-make was talked about. It was filmed. You lose.
     
  10. dmille

    dmille Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The fight was filmed or a re-enactment of the fight was filmed?
     
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Summaries
    • Complete in six rounds, including training pictures. Needless to say, this is the finest film ever taken. Even though the pictures were taken at enormous expense, the price of the films is within reach of all exhibitors. The greatest money maker.

      This content is protected


      Cast
      This content is protected
      This content is protected
      ... Self
      This content is protected
      This content is protected
      ... Self
      Produced by
      This content is protected
      ... producer


      Also Known As (AKA)

      (original title) Life Motion Photographs of the Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin Fight

      USA (alternative title) Fitzsimmons-Ruhlin, 6 Rounds, and Training Pictures

      USA (alternative title) The Only Original Fitzsimmons-Ruhlin Fight


      This content is protected
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No offers were forth coming for Johnson to defend his title against Jeannette in Australia why would there be?
    He was unknown there.Langford and McVey were popular in Aussie having engaged in contests there.
    Hugh McIntosh hoped to cash in on this popularity by pitting them both against Champion Johnson ,with this object he offered Johnson a two fight deal to defend against both of them Johnson accepted via telegram.
    Then Johnson's problems with the law came to a head and he skipped bail and became a fugitive and Australian public opinion turned against him and forced McIntosh to withdraw his offer.This is all easily verifiable in Pollack's book as is McIntosh's public statement explaining why he would not be promoting the two title fights.
    I've posted this information several times and named and dated the sources from which it came, plus the amounts of monies Johnson was to have received.The fact that you will not accept it because it does not fit with your hate agenda towards Johnson does not make it untrue. These are verified irrefutable facts!

    I've asked you this question many times'
    TO PRODUCE ONE VERIFED OFFER OF $30,OOO FOR JOHNSON TO DEFEND AGAINST EITHER JEANNETTE ,McVEY OR LANGFORD THAT HE DECLINED,NAME OF PROMOTER AND LOCATION TO BE PRODUCED BY YOU.DONT CITE THE BREYER OFFER FOR A 30 ROUND FIGHT WITH JEANNETTE WITH JOHNSON HAVINGTO MEET HIS OWN EXPENSES AND TRAVEL FROM THE US TO FRANCE .THAT WON'T FLY!
    YOU HAVE NEVER DONE THIS AND YOU WONT NOW . ALL YOU WILL DO IS BLUSTER AND BLOW, VAGUELY SAYING THERE WERE OFFERS OUT THERE.YOU ARE FULL OF ****. YOU ADMIT YOU RENEGED ON THE RUHLIN V FITZ FILM BET CITING AS AN EXCUSE A RE-ENACTEMENT COUNTS AS A FILM OF THE REAL FIGHT.
    THE LUBIN FILM IS A RE-ENACTMENT WHIC HE PASSED OFF AS THE REAL FIGHT UNTIL IT WAS SPOTTED THAT JIM CORBETT WHO HAD BEEN RUHLIN'S CHIEF SECOND WAS NOT IN THE FILM THIS WAS BECAUSE CORBETT HAD GOME BACK TO SAN FRANCISCO AND REFUSED TO TRAVEL BACK TO NY FOR THE RE-ENCTMENT[THE FIGHT WAS HELD IN MSG],THIS IS ALL MENTIONED IN GILBERT ODD'S BIO OF FITZSIMMONS THE FIGHTING BLACKSMITH AND I'VE POSTED IT HERE AT LEAST 3 TIMES RUHLIN WORE STAGE MAKE UP TO HIDE HIS BRUISES AND CUTS BECAUSE HE WAS SO BADLY MARKED UP FROM THE REAL FIGHT.


    YOU ARE A LYING **** .YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT AND NOW SO DOES EVERYONE ON HERE!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2020
  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    .
    STILL WAITING FOR THAT PRIMARY SOURCE OF A $30,000 OFFER FOR JOHNSON TO DEFEND AGAINST
    McVEY,JEANNETTE,or LANGFORD THAT JOHNSON REFUSED!
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Clock's ticking!
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thursday now Mendoza, you've posted everyday since I asked you for a primary source to answer my request if you cannot provide one by Friday ,will you have thehonest,and courtesy to say I could not find a primary source that proves my statement therefore I withdraw it?