Jack Johnson's Chin?

While it is true Langford was 156lbs Johnson himself was 187lbs and Langford had 50 fights under his belt.
When Johnson was kod by Choynsky, he was still maturing physically 20 months after this fight, he scaled 185lbs in a win over George Gardner.
Ten months earlier Johnson scaled 168lbs in facing Jack McCormick he was a work in progress both physically ,and regarding ring experience.

Ketchel dropped Johnson ,though it looks as though he is falling before being hit to me,whatever he kod Ketchel with the very next punch he threw.
Smith put Johnson through the ropes at the Seal Rock House in a make shift gym he did NOT TKO him, we have been over this a million times Smiths own taped testimony supports this, and he was there.Smith was a known big puncher.
Hart did not have Johnson in any trouble Creggains gave the fight to him because he said he did more work

When Johnson lost to Griffin he scaled less than 170 lbs,Griffin did not floor him neither did he have him in real distress at any point.
Johnson toyed with Burns and after wards went out to dinner and then on to a party no broken ribs

JimJohnson was a huge man who lacked scinece but was very strong and powerful and could hit hard.Jack Johnson broke his arm in anearly round of this ten rounder,was not in shape and gassed out late Battling JIm scaled 224lbs for this fight he was 6' 3" at no time was Jack floored in the ten rounder
While we are on this fight I am glad to see it is now emphatically acepted that it was a TEN ROUND BOUT as it is stated in the press ,so no more silly talk of a 20rounder being abbreviated please Also Johnson had not fought in18 months

Johnson did not fight Wills? No he didn't he was nearly 38 years old and on the run
How good did Wills look at 37 when he fouled out to Sharkey to save himself a beating ? Or, at 38 when Uzcudun stopped him in 4 rds?

McVey a teenager ? Well technically, he was 19 nearly 20 and coming off 2 ko wins over Denver Ed Martin 1rd and Kid Carter 11rds ,Johnson fought him 3 times and beat him 3 times, and was not floored in any of the bouts ,one of which went 20 rds before Jack scored the ko. I am sure the heavy hitting McVey must have landed some big stuff at some point in their trio of bouts.
How old was Tyson when he went on his ko rampage?
Jeffries stated categorically that Choynsky was the hardest hitter he faced,being kod by him, when you are still maturing, is not a cardinal sin imo.
Personally I would not rate Johnson's chin in the top ten of the heavy Champs, neither would I rate it where you have often done so ,as being suspect and weak.
I should think it was durable enough and the long interval without being stopped until he was an old man bears this out, imo.
Certainly not in the Ali ,Jeffries class, but then if Jeffries had fought till he was 50 might he not have several stoppages recorded against him?
We all know what happened when he came back at 35, he was floored several times before being kod.

 

Going out with friends now, I will adress this later.:hi:

 

Johnson was NOT floored by Langford, Johnson floored Langford ,cut his eye and broke his nose.It was a one sided beating.The reference you allude to is in a book that was "ghosted ". for Johnson.

Both men were short of their physical peak, Langford by around 24lbs, [180lbs,some would say 175lbs] Johnson by around 23lbs [208lbs].
A D Phillips, Fleischer' s father in law, saw the fight and his account corroborates this version of the fight.

Joe Woodman ,Langford's manager put the story around about a knockdown to drum up interest in a return and to enhance Sam's reputation, in later years he retracted it.

Langford had engaged in 50 fights when he fought Johnson ,he was no novice.

The Hart fight ,the consensus was that Johnson's clever defensive work had him in a handy lead going into the 14th round.

The promoter and referee Alex Creggains stated prior to the fight.
" I have notified Johnson that he must fight all the time,or the fight will be called a no contest"

Sound a trifle biased ? Can you imagine a contemporary referee saying that about a fighter just before a contest today, say PBF?
Johnson dominated the action with straight left and right leads ,whilst Hart was aggressive and forced the fight.It was reported that in the last 6 rds Johnson began to tire,.,and Hart had more success landing his shots.

In the last round a flash apparatus made a sound that was interpreted as the last bell to end the fight ,both men dropped their hands,Hart realizing it was not the bell ,quickly regrouped and landed his best punch of the fight,then the bell rang.

Creggains slapped Hart on the shoulder indicating he had won ,and afterwards said he gave the fight to Hart ,because he was" more aggressive", " I allways give the gamest ,and most aggressive man the decision".
A year earlier, Hart received a gift decision against Sandy Ferguson for his" aggression", in a fight he clearly lost.




Being kod by Choynsky is no disgrace I think he hit like a truck,the fact that it occurred in Galveston ,Johnson's home town, has what bearing on the result?
This was pre - prime Johnson, against a fading, but still dangerous experienced , heavy duty puncher.

When Johnson lost to Griffin he was reported to scale under 170lbs.

You make much play about Burns scaling 168lb and conveniently take this figure as gospel ,because it suits your agenda.When I give weights that do not reflect favourably on your argument you say "well they often under represented themselves" ,actually you say underrprsntd, but I give you a pass here.

If Burns scaled 168lbs, so what? He was around 180 at best,175lbs when he beat O Brien in a defence ,Johnson came in at 192 lbs and he stated categorically he was in the best shape of his life when he defended against Jeffries ,for which he weighed 208lbs,so Johnson was 16lbs below his optimum weight ,Burns 12 lbs.
Burns did not break any of Johnsons ribs in fact, he had a hard time landing anything worth while, Johnson played with him like a cat with a mouse the eyewitness accounts all state it was a one sided massacre.

Johnson could have ended the fight anytime after the first few rounds but chose to inflict punishment on the man who had called him "yellow and a damned black hyena."
Johnson went out to dinner that evening then, on to a club till the early hours ,I have had cracked ribs from a fight ,and let me tell you ,you don't feel like socializing if you have them.Just a cough can be agony.

Johnson had a "black eye"? Is this an attempt at humour?

There is now no debate about the length of the fight between the two Johnson's ,papers CLEARLY state it was a ten round match. Johnson broke a bone in his arm early on and fought basically one handed from then on.He was palpably untrained and had not fought for 18 months Jim Johnson was a very big, strong guy in top shape he gave Jack problems as the Champion tired ,what would have happened over a longer distance is entirely academic.
Johnson did not quit, a draw decision was given after the end of the scheduled ten rounds.

Gunboat Smith, in a taped interview in the 70's stated he put Johnson through the ropes in a sparring session no decision was given ,it was a spar,I will take the word of Smith .

Whatever the merits of the punch that Ketchel landed on Johnson ,Jack got up and kod him with the first punch he threw.

Johnson can be clearly seen carrying Ketchel in the film of the fight ,at one point he hits him a little too hard, and quickly grabs him and sets him back on his feet before Ketchel falls .

Your question was why did Johnson not fight Wills after the Willard fight?

Johnson was no longer Champion then ,and past it ,I drew the comparison between him at 37 -38 and Wills at the same age. Wills was humiliated by Sharkey and dogged it against Uzcudun.

There is no clear film of McVey to draw a conclusion as to his abilities ,only contemporary accounts that state he was a terrific fighter, your opinion is supposition not fact.

Likewise your interpretation of the abbreviated fight between Johnson and Jeanette,Johnson was clearly Jeanette's master ,and proved it many times.

You cannot be objective on Johnson ,and that is your achilles heel.
Of the Champions you have selected, I would say Johnson's chin would be on a par with Louis's,whom I would place at the bottom of this list.

I have never claimed Johnson's chin was impregnable ,I just wanted to get other posters opinions on it ,as you have so glibly stated many times that Johnson had chin issues,NONE of the posters who replied appear to agree with you on this.

As to making things personal or not, either way suits me. I don't think you have the vocabulary to beat me in this area, if you want to use quaint old Anglo Saxon terms like DOLT it does not bother me ,
I will respond, depending on how I am addressed.

 

What is not clear about my placement of Johnson?
I would put him with Louis, whom I would place last in the ten you provided.
I can only place him in the context of the men you provided.
Louis was dropped multiple times but only kod twice, both by Champions[ ex and to be], and both were heavy punchers.
His chin was not bad but not on a par with others like Ali ,Jeffries too, but his is not proven against super heavypunchers, the fact that he was never dropped in an actual fight leads me to beleive his chin was very durable, probably top grade.
Of all the Heavyweight Champs I would probably put Johnson around the middle for durability.


Where you rate Johnson H to H is entirely up to you if you want to mark him down because of a perceived lack of iron in his chin ,which I might point out, no one else seems to agree with ,that is your perogative.

You fasten on a ko when Jack was developing, and a tko which was from body shots,when Johnson scaled around 168lbs, a punch that put him through the ropes in sparring and a knockdown from a terrific puncher albeit a 170lbs one ,in Ketchel which may or may not have been faked.

He did not get kod again until he was 37 and, after 26 rds from a giant who had a very powerful right. I AM CONVINCED THIS KO WAS ON THE LEVEL.
That's 3 stoppages in 16 years, one from body shots.
The evidence that his chin was weak is not there, I am afraid.

Jeffries turns out to have been floored twice and put into a trance by light hitting Corbett in sparring, should we then say his chin was weak?

I don't think so.
Marciano was floored by sparring partner Toxie Hall and, by his own admission buzzed, the spar was cancelled ,was it a tko ? NO.
Toxie Hall was a journeyman ,is this evidence that Marciano had a suspect chin? NO

I would sooner watch Dempsey fight anyday rather , than Johnson I would imagine he was a frustrating performer to view.
Then I find Wlad totally boring as well, whatever his abilities.
I am not a particular fan of Johnson's, it just irks me to see yopu spin the facts about him Dempsey is by far my favourite heavyweight, then Ali.