Jack Johnsons resume, why I consider him a top 5 all time heavyweight

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Oct 13, 2007.


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  1. Cojimar 1945

    Cojimar 1945 Member Full Member

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    Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Wladimir Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko, Holyfield and Tua and even Jameel McCline would all likely all be favored to beat Tyson in 2002.
     
    Cojimar 1945, Oct 17, 2007
    Cojimar 1945, Oct 17, 2007
    #61
  2. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    But he was still a level above the shot Jeffries & Fitzsimmons that Johnson faced.



    I still can't understand why some people rank him as high as #3 when he had the worst title reign in history. That would've been forgiveable if he was fighting in a weak era; but he wasn't. He blatantly ducked 4 outstanding, deserving challengers for years. Even Patterson wasn't that bad. And please don't bring up those wins when they had 8 wins or were still middleweights when Johnson was already a full veteran heavyweight.
     
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    #62
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Why was his title reign worse than Jack Dempsey's?
     
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    #63
  4. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    Johnson´s best wins during his title reign:


    James J. Jeffries
    Al Kaufmann
    Stanley Ketchel
    Frank Moran


    Dempsey´s best wins during his title reign:



    Tommy Gibbons
    Billy Miske
    Georges Carpentier
    Luis Angel Firpo



    That should answer your question...
     
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    #64
  5. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    because it was. When Dempsey was champ each of the five fighers that got the shot was repectable contenders, Carp (champ of Europe), Gibbons (had a couple of wins over Greb who some thought Demosey should have fought), Miske, Brennan and Fripo. Those fighters are generally better then the ones Johnson faced in title defenses
     
    dmt, Oct 17, 2007
    dmt, Oct 17, 2007
    #65
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I would remove the Jeffries win from Johnson's reign as it was a joke. But it was one that Johnson had to go through with. I would also remove the Miske win from the Demspey list because it too is a joke. Again, it was something he had to do.

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't they both hold the title for sevenish years? And in that time didn't Dempsey defend his title a miserable seven times? Johnson defended more. In that time, each man took on only one guy who could realistically have been expected to beat the man in the other corner - Firpo and Johnson. Both fights were freakish, but the Dempsey one was a belter and the Johnson one was just horrible. Dempsey scores some points here.

    Both failed to fight the most extraordinary challenger of their day for whatever reason.

    But I find Dempsey's inactivity more offensive than Johnson's non-event with Johnson, personally. Both could have been busier, both could have taken on The Man, neither did, but Dempsey just squated on the title. Johnson was at least busy-ish.
     
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    #66
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Absolutely yes.

    His overall body of work however was not in either depth or quality.
     
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    #67
  8. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    I just picked spontaneous their best wins, Miske was ill, right, but it was still a good win, the same with Jeffries, he was a better win than against Fireman Jim Flynn IMO, but that´s a matter of view, both had a poor title reign, it´s better to defend the title not so often but against better fighters...
     
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    #68
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't see a huge gap between the quality of fighters Dempsey took on and the quality of fighters Johnson took on. I think if you look you will have to agree that none of the guys that they fought could have been expected to beat them, really, until they were taken.

    In the meantime Dempsey fought less.

    Dempsey should have fought Wills and Johnson should have fought Langford.

    Interestingly you could argue that Demspey should have fought Johnson! Well, not really, but fighting Johnson probably would have been better than hanging around with beautiful movie stars.

    EDIT: For us, not for him.
     
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    #69
  10. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    :lol:




    :thumbsup
     
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    Luigi1985, Oct 17, 2007
    #70
  11. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    My German friend said it all.

    Dempsey's reign is also in the "weaker" category and 6 times in 7 years indeed is very little; however, i think this is a case of quality (Dempsey) over quantity (Johnson). Don't forget that Tunney was also a title challenger of Dempsey, even if he lost to him.
     
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    #71
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Who?!

    You may be right about Dempsey fighting slightyly better qualified opponents - but the gap is only marginal to me. And regardless, I hold by my original statement that they BOTH took on guys who couldn't be expected to beat them.

    Here's one for you to ponder then - the Willard that beat Johnson v the Tunney that beat Dempsey. Who would you pick?
     
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    McGrain, Oct 17, 2007
    #72
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    I do not dispute that Dempsey's title reign was better.

    The question you have to ask is whether Dempseys peak run matches Johnsons peak run (most of which took place before he held the title).

    I think Johnson takes it by a large margin on depth if not on quality as well.
     
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    #73
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    I think that if there had been rankings in Johnsons day that Jeffries would have been ranked No1 (perhaps inapropriately) and that Kaufman and Ketchel would have been ranked somwhere but bellow the black dynamite crew. Moran might have been ranked somwhere.

    there were only rankings in the last two years of Dempseys reign but Dempsey did defent his title against the clear cut No2 challenger twice in Gibbons and Tunney. In Johnsons era that could mean McVea and Wills.

    Having said that both did a lot of their body of work before they became champion and indeed after.
     
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    janitor, Oct 17, 2007
    #74
  15. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Luigi of course! I don't care if he's Italian, if he lives in German, he's a German!

    I agree. I did not mean that Johnson's reign is several levels below Dempsey's. Just that it's weaker.

    Incidentally, Fogey posted some of the fighting odds recently on Dempsey:

    Tunney 9 out of 10 times. Tunney is in a different stratosphere when it comes to boxing ability. Gene was a master boxer who could move, box, jab, feint, fight off the backfoot, use lateral movement, slipping, ducking, etc etc. This is all watchable on film. Willard was a big stiff farmer boy who had nothing going for him besides his size. You may have noticed that i often back the bigger man, but not here. Tunney can offset the size difference with boxing skill.
     
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    ChrisPontius, Oct 17, 2007
    #75
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