Jack Johnsons resume, why I consider him a top 5 all time heavyweight

Yes, probably. But my point was that when you rank someone as high as #3, you must have really high standards and disgracing the title but blatantly ducking 4 very deserving challengers for 8 years is not something small and in my opinion disqualifies him of the top3 spot.

 

Last year I was in Miami for 2 weeks, was I an American back than? :tong

 

Call me stupid, biased or both, but I think Tunny would make Willard look foolish and would TKO him somewhere in the middlerounds after a terrible beating...

 

Yep, you were a fat, hamburger eating, Bush-supporting McDonalds addict back then.


By the way, there is nothing biased or strange about picking Tunney over Willard.

 

Johnson’s struggles with O'brien and Jim Battling Johnson stain his legacy as champion. Barely defeating Moran, and getting knocked down by Ketchel doesn’t help either.

If we were to match a prime Jack Dempsey vs the guys Johnson gave title shots to, it’s a massacre!

If we were to match Tommy Gibbons, Billy Miske, George Carpentier, or Luis Firpo v Johnson in title matches, we have four solid fights.

 

:thumbsup


Yeah, IMO Tunney would give most ATG´s- HW much trouble, and many even a boxing lesson...

 

Or he can live where PBF is from, but he will never be a gangsta like him...

 

Chris, can I ask you who are the 4 chalengers you think Johnson ducked? Im assuming you include Jeanette ,Mcvey,and Langford,but who is the fourth?.
Actually I dont think Johnson gets enough credit for beating these guys prior to winning the title,can we just look at them for a moment?
When Langford fought Johnson in 1906 ,he was 23,and had had 59 fights,in his previous fight prior to the Johnson defeat he had beaten Joe Jeanetteon points,the same month,so he was hardly green ,its true he was the smalled man,he weighed 156 for that fight ,but johnson was 185,so we have a 29 lbs difference,if we compare that to Jeffries best wins Sharkey 25 rds dec weight advantage 33lbs,Corbett 23 rds ko weight advantage 30lbs,Fitzsimmons 11 rds ko weight advantage 39lbs,I think Johnsons win stacks up pretty well,he broke langfords nose ,cut his face and dropped him inthe 6 th round ,that seems to me as emphatic a win as any of those defense s of Jeffries,plus Langford wasnt past his prime he was a veteran of 59 fights ,cominf off a good win over Jeanette and srill only 23 ,not a retired fighter i his late 30s coming back from inactivity.
Im not wishing to denigrate jeffries wins ,but from where I sit it looks like a double standard is being applied here.Lets look at Jeanette,in 1905 he loses twice to johnson,he was 2 months short of his 26 th birthday ,so not a kid is he?,he then beats Black bill twice ,draws with Jim Jeffords,,and beats Johnson by dsq in2,fights a no dec in 6 with him.in 1906they go to a nodec in3 then Jeanette loses on points over 15,by now Jeanette is 27,they are to fight4 more times, i no dec, i win for Johnson in3,amd 2 draws,in these last fight Jeanette isnt a green kid ,but an accomplished fighter who was fighting ,and beating some of the best mfor example in1906 he kod Langford in 8 rds..Johnsons wins over Jeaette get dismissd as victiries over a green kid ,but the later fights were not,there may not have been much between them but Johnson proved he was the better man imo.
Sam Mcvey,ok when he fough Johnson the first time he was young and rather raw,but he had won all his fights by ko ,including a win over Fred Russell a 6 6 fringe contender who Boxrec rated no15 the year previously,Mcvey kod russel in 5,Mcvey lost to Johnson in1903 on points over 20 rounds ,for the Coloured title,after this fight he kod Kid Carter and Denver Ed Martin ,Martin in1 round, Sam fight sJohnson again in october of that year losing a 20 rd dec,and again in1904 ,inthis fight he was kod in20rds,,Mcvey might still have been a work in progress ,but he did have ko win sover Russel and Martin to his credit,so decnt wins for Johnson,especially if you compare them to Jeffries title defence over Jack Munroe.Summarisindg I think Johnsons wins over this trio are underated,Im not suggesting he shouldnt have fought them later,during his title reignbut at least he did meet them and established superiority over them at that time.

 

I have followed this debate throughout different threads for some time and I have to say I have re-evaluated Johnson downwards in my top ten based on some of the issues raised.
Some points on no particular side of the arguements, McVey was a good fighter when JJ beat him, he matured early and certainly had more fights than recorded for him, some in Ca. and maybe more than one in Australia. Jacks win over Kaufman was more decent at the time than it seems now, Al was well talked up at the time. After 1910 it is quite possible that the big three colored fighters would have beaten him and maybe even Gunboat but these guys had -like Jack-a lot of off-days too for whatever reason. And I dont think you can retrospectively turn the Willard fight into a 15 round affair, training, tactics and attitude would all be different. We can however speculate with some confidence that JJ would win on points over 15. Jeffries also had pretty poor competition as a champion bearing age etc. into account but for the most part he boxed the best out there and cannot be faulted for the quality of his opponents.
I once rated the top 10 at year end a la Ring and I find it helps establish a time-line which can be envaluable in these kind of debates.

1895

Champion Maher
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Jackson
4. Slavin
5. Smith
6. Choynski
7. Felix
8. Hall
9. Creedon
10. O’Donnell

1896

Champion Corbett
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Maher
4. Choynski
5. Sharkey
6. Armstrong
7. Creedon
8. Goddard
9. Ruhlin
10. O’Donnell

1897

Champion Fitzsimmons
2. Maher
3. Sharkey
4. Choynski
5. Childs
6. Corbett
7. Ruhlin
8. Jeffries
9. O’Donnell
10. Armstrong

1898

Champion Fitzsimmons
2. Jeffries
3. Sharkey
4. Maher
5. Corbett
6. McCoy
7. Ruhlin
8. Childs
9. Armstrong
10. Choynski

1899

Champion Jeffries
2. Sharkey
3. Fitxsimmons
4. Maher
5. McCoy
6. Corbett
7. Kennedy
8. Ruhlin
9. Childs
10. Martin


1900

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Corbett
4 McCoy
5 Ruhlin
6 Sharkey
7 Childs
8 Maher
9 Kennedy
10 Martin

1901

Champion Jeffries
2 Ruhlin
3 McCoy
4 Childs
5 Sharkey
6 Root
7 Martin
8 Maher
9 Griffin
10 Gardner

1902

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Ruhlin
4 Martin
5 Johnson
6 Gardner
7 O’Brien
8 Root
9 Hart
10 Carter

1903

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Johnson
4 Ruhlin
5 Gardner
6 Root
7 Hart
8 O’Brien
9 Armstrong
10 McVey

1904

Champion Jeffries
2 Johnson
3 Hart
4 Root
5 O’Brien
6 Gardner
7 Ruhlin
8 Ferguson
9 Martin
10 McVey

1905

Champion Hart
2 Johnson
3 O’Brien
4 Jeanette
5 Root
6 Fitzsimmons
7 Ruhlin
8 Kaufman
9 J Twin Sullivan
10 Schreck

1906

Champion Burns
2 Johnson
3 O’Brien
4 Langford
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 Kaufman
8 Schreck
9 Hart
10 Ruhlin

1907

Champion Burns
2 Johnson
3 Kaufman
4 Langford
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 O’Brien
8 Schreck
9 Jim Flynn
10 Sullivan

1908

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Kaufman
4 Burns
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 O’Brien
8 Hart
9 Ross
10 Schreck

1909

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Kaufman
6 Ketchell
7 O’Brien
8 Ferguson
9 Lang
10 Schreck

1910

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Kaufman
6 Burns
7 Lang
8 Jim Flynn
9 Dan Flynn
10 Curran
Top


1911

champion Johnson
2 McVey
3 Langford
4 Jeanette
5 Wells
6 Jim Flynn
7 Al Palzar
8 Carl Morris
9 Dan Flynn
10 Clarke

1912

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Gunboat Smith
6 Willard
7 Ross
8 Mc Carthy
9 Jim Flynn
10 Palzar

1913

Champion Johnson
2 Smith
3 Langford
4 Jeanette
5 McVey
6 Jim Johnson
7 Pelkey
8 Willard
9 Moran
10 Carpentier

1914

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Carpentier
6 Clarke
7 Dillon
8 Wills
9 Levinsky
10 Coffey

1915

Champion Willard
2 Johnson
3 Moran
4 Dillon
5 Wills
6 McVey
7 Jeanette
8 coffey
9 Langford
10 Morris

 

I have no definite top10 but i do have a pretty constant top4:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Lewis
4. Marciano

Past that, i think it is pretty much a tie between Holmes/Frazier/Holyfield/Foreman/Tyson.

The 4 challengers i meant are Langford, Jeannette, Mcvey and Gunboat Smith.
Langford was still a middleweight when he fought Johnson. His best wins at HW were all yet to come. A green Jeannette knocked him out in 8. Young Peter Jackson knocked him out in 5. Johnson went the 15 round distance with him. Jeannette himself had 3 fights the first time Johnson fought him and a mere 18 the last time they fought. No amature career. He didn't knock out Jeannette on a single occasion despite it being man vs boy in terms of experience and skill.
Mcvey had less than 10 fights when they fought.

Again, these wins mean very little. All of them hit their stride later on and Johnson did not fight them even when he had the title. Shavers knocked out a still developing Jimmy Young; when Young was more experienced he went the distance and should've gotten the decision.


I agree with the comparisons you make to Jeffries and it is (among others) for that reason that i rate Johnson higher than Jeffries, there is no doubt there. Although head to head i see it as being very close.

 

I dont deny Johnson should have fought the black trio when champion,how it affects his legacy is personal opinion.The fact that Johnson never kod jeanette doesnt mean much to me ,he wasnt usually a ko artist,and was a lazy performer,not a dynamic one,we may disagree on some aspects of Johnsons record ,but you have given an unbiased and balanced opinion ,which I respect.

 

When Johnson fought fighters who were not green, or extremely light, his results are poor. Jeanette was very green. McVey was a teenager and just as green. Langford was too small. Johnson fought these guys something like 15+ times, yet he only scored one ko despite having a big edge in experience over Jeanette and McVey, and huge edge in size over Langford.

However, when Johnson meet fighters who were not green or small, his results were mixed. Johnson lost to Choysnki, Griffin and Hart. These three were not as good as the Sharkey, Fitz, and Corbett that Jeffries beat. Nor were they as good as Langfrod, McVey, and Jeanette would later become in 1908-1915! Other losses to fighter like Klondike, or draws to no names do not help Johnson’s case at all.

I saw you suggest that O’Brien was past it when Johnson meet him because Ketchel beat him quickly. Maybe so, but this means that a past his prime O'brien was even with a prime Jack Johnson. At least O'brien, unlike the famous trio of MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford had great experience. The result showed as a faded O'brein gave Johnson more troubles than Langford or McVey did.

If Jeffries had fought the same McVey, Jeanette, and Langford who were green or small, I have to believe he wins via KO.

I really don’t think Johnson’s wins over Jeanette, Langford and MCvey meant as much as you do when they happened.


As for who Johnson could have given title shots to, Langford, McVey and Jeanette come to mind. There wer ebig money offers to Johnson to take these fights. After them, there was Gunboat Smith ( Who hurt Johnson in a sparring session ), Luther McCarty, Jack Dillion and Jeff Clark. Any one of these seven fighters would give a qualified contender a title shot from 1908-1915.

 

Ive been waiting for you to get in the act.
You say Johnson should have fought McCarty,Dillon,or Clark,between 1908 and 1915.
Lets take them one by one McCarty,he didnt start boxing till 1911,so that leaves out 08,09,and10 doesnt it?i In 1912 MCCarty kod JimFlynn in 16 rds,the same year Johnson stopped Flynn in 9 rds. In 1913 McCarty kod Al Palzer in 18 rds and had a nodec with Frank Moran over 10 rds ,in his next fight of any note he was fatally kod by Arthur Pelkey in 1 rd dying in May 1913 ,that doesnt give Johnson much time to Fight McCarty does it? Given that Johnson skipped out of the country in 1913.
Jeff Clark had his first Fight in 1908 the first year you think he wasa suitable contender for Johnson,bearing in mind you dismissed Johnsons victories over Jeanette and Mcvey as wins over green kids. In 1909 Clark lost 2 fights to welterweight Dixie Kid.
In 1910 he was kod in2 by Langford.
In 1911,he was only able to scrape a draw with Frank mantell a middleweight.
1912,1913,1914 he beat no one of any stature
In 1915 the last year of your time frame he lost a 10 rounder to Sam Mcvey and beat no one of class.Why should he have received a title shot?
Jack Dillon,Dillon didnt fight his first light heavyweight till 1913 ,let alone Heavy!In his first fight with Levinsky ,both were middle weights.
the first name big man he fought was Jim Flynn in 1914,it was a 10 round draw,Johnson had stopped Flynn 2 years previously in 9 rds.
Dillon was a great LH ,but up to 1914 he was still fighting MIDDLES,indeed he claimed the title at one point.
After the draw with Flynn Dillon beat Al Norton over 10 rds ,JoHnson played with Norton.Dillon the wona 10 rounder over our old friend Flynn .thats his Heavyweight resumeup to1915 ,when Johnson retired.
Again Dillon didnt start fighting till 1908 ,and had only fought a couple of Heavys by the time Johnson retired .Norton and the oft recycled Flynn,when Johnson retired Dillon was coming up to 24,and at 5 7 had just filled oput to a LH,he wasnt a threat to Johnson ,actually he was more of a contender to Dempsey ,and that was 2 Title reigns later.
I Beleive I have answered your "sticks" convincingly.
I stated in an earlier post that if Gunboat Smith had been in the opposite corner against johnson ,instead of Jim Johnson ,the title would possibly have changed hands ,but he wasnt ,and if he was Johnson would likely have been in better shape, you can say JIm Johnson should have been awarded the title when Johnson broke his arm, how many rounds the fight was scheduled for is still unclear ,if it was a 20 rounder I would agree with you ,but Ive seen it quite a few times described as a 10 rounder,so I wont say either way .