Jack Johnsons resume, why I consider him a top 5 all time heavyweight

jUST TO CORRECT A FACT; SCHRECK DID NUT KO HART IN 21, HE RETIRED CLAIMING A DAMAGEDHAND, PROBABLY LEGIT BUT HE WAS TAKING A BIT OF A HAMMERING.

 

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Clark got the better of the top talents and did enough to earn a shot. Certainly over some of the men Johnson gave title shots to, Ksmith. Do you want to debate this?

You saying Clarke was only a middle means zero, as I poitned out the height and weights of Burns, O'brien and Flynn. Clark was a very quick and slick type of fighter, the type that could make Johnson look bad like he did vs O'rbein.

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The films would be better. Still, most heavyweight champions whip the fighters Johnson fought, and look good doing it. Johnson has excuses, poor performances, and as you said, ripped off the fans during his fights, and by not making the fights the fans wanted to see.

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I agree, though I do think Johnson could punch. Smart fighters ( and Johnson was smart ) pick the best style for them. Those safety first defensive counter puncher types don't have good durability at heavyweight. At least there has never been one that I can think of.

Can you show me a safety first defensive counter punchers that had good durability at heavyweight? Give me three good names, then we see if it is a generalization, or not. I'll spot you Chirs Byrd.

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To win fights, fighters need to 1 ) land more cleaner blows than the other guy and win a decision, or 2 ) Knock them out. Johnson did not throw a lot of punchers, he would not be allowed to clinch as much outside of his own era, and his KO percentage is rather low. Thus Johnson will have a hard time winning fantasy fights vs other all time heavies in my opinion. This was a side point of the thread.

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Hart won the fight.

I have Jack Johnson's own quote that says Hart beat him. Would you like to read it? Who says Hart should have lost? Johnson was the more hurt of the two, and Hart made the fight for the second half.

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Johnson dogged it the entire second half of the fight. Hart Hurt Johnson with a body shot that nearly dropped him in round 12. Johnson corner men were urging their man on, but Johnson did little. Pulling an Ocsar de la Hoya for 10 rounds is no way to win a fight in those days.

At stake in this fight was a possible shot at Jeffries. The press suggested that if Johnson won, the demand and money might lure a retired Jeffries to fight the winner. I'd like you to read this, then reply:


Johnson also lost to Marvin Hart. He admitted this in Boxing Illustrated re-printed article.

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There you have it Ksmith. Johnson himself says Hart whiped him. Embrace the truth. I provided the source.


PART II con't...

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Part II con't...

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At stake here was a possible shot at Jeffries for the winner.

If a promtoter had put up 30,000-100,000 contract for the winner of Hart vs Johnson to meet Jeffries, Jeffries might have signed. I see no such offer out there. However, I do see MANY offers out there for Johnson to fight McVey, Jeanette, and Langford as champion. Offers from 30,000 to 100,000! Jeffries said he would fight Hart if the public wanted it.


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I give Johnson credit on his good performances too. I also think Dempsey deserves the same suspicion for losing to Meehan, and Flynn. See I am fair and balanced.

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Don't you think Hart as the last man to beat Johnson would have been a good pick?
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Then Johnson failed to make the 156 pound Langford quit. And Johnson went at Langford hard.

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This is a flat out lie.

Do you want to address the offers Langford, McVey, and Jeanette had to fight Johnson? I think not. It doesn't matter who you think was #1 challenger was from 1908-1915...Johnson never fought the best, second best, or even third best man out there.

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A champion should fight the best talent out there. Do you agree?

Yes, but most champion do face a top 3 guy as champion. Johnson did not. He picked too many journeyman, and might have lost twice to them if a fair decsion was given.

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Johnson was champion from 1908-1915. I posted several articles from known promoters offering Johnson a huge amount of cash to fight Langford, Jeanette, and MCVey? Did you read them Mr. Smith?

So we agree then. Johnson ducked them.

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Where is the excuse here? I think a few people here simply will not embrace the truth.

The ring results, and paper reads are what matters most in non-filmed fights. The exuceses are something I am not offering.

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If the money was high enough, I venture to say yes. Jeffries was still considered to be champion by many when he retired, then returned to face Johnson. If Jeffries was offered a big money fight in 1904-1905 to fight a 156 pound Langford, a teenaged McVey, or a near .500 Jeanette for say $30,000 I think he takes it. You should note that as Champion Jeffries did fight a black contender in Hank Griffin in a 4 round match. Griffin went down many times. So it is fact that Jeffries would share the ring with a black fighter as champion, at least in a 4 rounder.

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Disagree. Who did Langford beat as a heavy before facing Johnson, and what was that man's record? Now take a look at who Sharkey, Fitz, and Corbett beat before facing Jeffries. There is a HUGE difference.

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McVey was a teenager when he fought Johnson. He had six known fights when he first meet Johnson, and had never been past six rounds or beaten a fighter with a winning record according to Box Rec! If this isn’t the definition of green, I don’t know what is. If McVey had an amateur career, its news to me.

The truth is the truth. Did I make anything up here? NO. Let's take the win at its real value.


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Losing to Martin made Mcvey question if he wanted to box. He said this, and took a long time off from the ring.

 

Thanks for the info,allways welcome!:good

 

Yes Mcvey nearly two years off ,all most as long as Fitz and Corbett before coming back to meet Jeffries!

 

Yes, but McVey was just getting started. He needed fights, and took two years off. Read a bit. McVey said he nearly quit the game after losing to Martin.

 

"Ottawa, Ont. Dec.18-Jack Johnson, in a letter to Toronto to Tom Flanagan, dated Paris, outlines...He meets Jim Johnson, a big negro, at Paris tomorrow. The champion undertakes to stop Jim Johnson in ten rounds" Racine Journal News Dec.18, 1913 and several other papers in Canada.
"Matches tonight;
Jack Johnson vs Jim Johnson, 20 rounds at Paris, France." La Crosse Tribune, Wisc 19 Dec.1913
Take your pick but having read half-a -dozen post-fight reports in which none mentions a shortened contest it seems, in lack of other evidence, to accept that this was a 10 round scheduled affair.
Finally one other interesting tid-bit:
"Paris, Dec.24-The French federation of boxing prepared to investigate charges that the Jack Johnson-Battling Jim Johnson battle was a fake.Advices from Chicago say that BattlingJim was none other than Gus Rhodes, a brother-in-law of "Lil Artha" Rhodes is said to be a double for the powerfully built Battling Jim."
Anyone ever hear of this before or the outcome of the investigation?
And finally as a complete diversion, does any of ye "historians" know how come the 220+ pounds Johnson was, according to BOxrec, fighting at 175-180 in 1915?

 

Well Z, your response was too long and too jumbled(in terms of the alignment on the page) for me to respond to all of your counterpoiunts. But, to be honest, I didn't really want to jump into this mess in the first place--and I don't really want to continue on arguing points with you--it is too damn frustrating.

I will bow out with this--I think you are way off base, do not do enough research to truly flesh out facts, have little insight into the smaller particulars of the time period, let your passionate dislike cloud your judgements, jump to conclusions when finding items that seemingly fit into your theories, forgive the limitations of some fighters(Jeffries, dempsey) while crucifying others(Johnson) for similar infractions.

I do not think Johnson the greatest fighter of all time. Nor do I think he was a great fighter while champion, however, your attempts to discredit his career entirely while building up others in the process is just flat out frustrating and wildly off base.

 

HOORAY! A MAN WHO TELLS IT LIKE IT IS!

 

On "how come the 220+ pounds Johnson was, according to boxrec, fighting at 175-180 in 1915?"

I am not an historian, but I think it is because more than one man was fighting under the name Battling Johnson, and boxrec mixed them up.

I think there is confusion about Jack Johnson, also. They have supposedly discovered fights of his in the twenties and thirties not printed in the old Ring Record Books--but were the Jack Johnsons of these fights the Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson is probably about the most common name in America. I am certain many, many men were named Jack Johnson. Did the activities of the former champion elude Nat Fleischer and his staff? Maybe and maybe not. Note that his alleged ko defeat in 1938 to Walter Price is in Boston and Price was a featherweight in his fourth fight. Would the 230 pound Johnson been matched with a featherweight at the age of sixty? Where was the state athletic commission?

 

This fight took place in a back room of a sallon ,and Price was not a featherweight,I have an article about this fight in either the Boxing Illustrated or the Ring. Price is the story teller,he also goes into detail about his backroom fight with Al McCoy which he lost,In tghe aftermath of the Johnson fight which originated over an argument during a card game,the "promoter ",said to Price " you werent even in his class",a comment with which the chastened Price agreed,Johnson was an old man when this fight took place ,I must dig the article out.

 

I don’t know why you are calling me Z. Did I miss a joke? I do not call you Mrs. Smith. The reason for the reply format is two fold. I am a busy man and did not have enough time in the morning to iron it out. I also had to break up the post into two sections to be posted here due to an apparent 10,000 character limit per post. If you want to bow out without debating it fine. Just don’t tell me what I am posting is not true. If you disagree the onus is on you to disprove or offer additional information.

My posts here are to shed light on what actually happend in and out of the ring, KSimith. Shedding light on the truth doesn't mean you are discrediting anyone. It means you are exploring the learning process of an era which has limited film.

And as I told you before, I do think Dempsey had some problems with guys he should have beaten easily ( Flynn and Meehan ). In addition if you read my stuff I don’t excuse Jeffries either as I think he re-tired too soon. See how easy that is?


It’s probably a moot point, but you want me to reference to any of the above, or a debate on the issues, by all means go for it. I back up what I say with sources, dates and real results. What I do not do is attempt to discredit someone who is brings forth information on boxing as a hater, which appears to be your main stratgey as you step off your soap box.


Quite the contrary. I welcome all news reports in this forum. The more I read, the more I learn.

 

When was this story told? At the time or decades later when Johnson and the other alleged participants were dead? Off your description, it does not seem like a liscenced fight anyway, more like a private brawl, and if Price claims he won, how do we know that is true?
Boxrec lists this "fight" on Johnson's record and lists Walter Price as a featherweight.
I have my doubts about the whole thing passing the smell test.

 

safety first counter punchers with good durability,Eddie Mchen only stopped by big hitters went the distance with Liston,Joe Bugner ,never stopped in his prime,Jimmy Young another durable guy .Come down to LH and you have Harold Johnson,and Joey Maxim.