Jack Johnson's title run

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Swarmer said: ↑

Philadelphia Jack O' Brien: A past-his-prime middleweight? Poor *******
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Yes , same age as the Heavyweight Champion at 31.

Luke McKernan . Hi there. I'm a film historian, specialising in early and non-fiction film, with an equal interest in new media and digital futures - and all points in between. I'm also Lead Curator, Moving Image at the British Library. file .

According to this gentleman, the Jack Johnson v Ben Taylor fight 31st July 1908 ,, in the UK was filmed.

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Boilermaker said: ↑

Jim Jeffries!

Was handily defeated by past prime middleweight Bob Fitzsimmons after 6 rounds!

I really think that Philadelphia Jack O Brien is really given the short end of the stick nowadays. Let us not forget that he beat two World heavyweight champions in Bob Fitzsimmons and Tommy Burns. He was an alphabet World Champion, and he took the former champ Tommy Burns a total of 46 rounds in three fights with a record of 1-1-1. Plus he beat Mike Shrek, who was the man who KOd the last champion Jack Johnson. He knocked down Jack Johnson conquerer Marvin Hart, he had just gone the distance with Stanley Ketchell, the man who knocked down Jack Johnson.

In fact, if you look at that, really, you would expect an Obrien Johnson fight to be made, without question. Until he lost to Ketchell and Langford, he was probably the standout challenger to Johnson title.

When i think about it, O Brien Jeffries might actually be a very interesting fight over 6 rounds. To turn your question around, i wonder how many ATG fighters would be favoured to beat O Brien in a ND 6 round fight. I dont think many would.
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O Brien was the undefeated Light Heavyweight Champion when he fought Johnson. He was 31 years old, same age as Johnson , and would go on to beat Flynn,and Schreck.He was pretty good in 6 rounders having beaten Schreck,Choynski,and drawn with Hart.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQFoxxAeywg[/ame]

This was a 20 round draw in 1906 ,3 years before he fought Johnson.It can be seen that Burns had as much difficulty catching O Brien ,as Johnson is reputed to have done.
Jim Jeffries is the referee he was later asked who he thought was better ,and he said O Brien!

guilalah · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza #24

Anytime the champion is in the ring in a non-exhibition match, it should be viewed as a title fight.

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Why?

There are two boxers in the ring, not just the champion. Why wouldn't the other boxers qualifications to fight for the title have anything to do with whether a contest is viewed as being for a title?

Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

mcvey said: ↑

Burns was five feet seven inches, and his best fighting weight was 175 pounds.
Tracy Callis From Cyber Zone

His best fighting weight was 174 pounds.
Dan Cuoco Director of IBRO.Cyber Zone
THis is, according to you ,"the best researched boxing site".
Burns scaled 168lbs for Johnson, who was 192lbs.
That means Burns was 6lbs at most below his best weight.Not 15 pounds.
Johnson scaled 192lbs 16 lbs below his best weight of 208lbs.:good
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Johnson best filmed performance is Burns. Who says Johnson's best weight was 208? As for Burns, he was at low weight for this fight, and ill. If anyhting Burns needed extra weight in this fight. Instead he came in at his lowest weight in a long time.

So you like the Cyber Boxing Zone, eh? Tell me then, what was the duration in the Johnson vs. Johnson fight according to them.

Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

mcvey said: ↑

There is another term for it , it's called lying.:good
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Right, you do it often. You are a guy who claims he always roots for the better man, and you also claim to have a 139 IQ. Nice work.

Let's stay on the subject here, shall we?

Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

Boilermaker says:Jim Jeffries!

Was handily defeated by past prime middleweight Bob Fitzsimmons after 6 rounds!

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So you are comparing a 6 round match to one that scheduled for 20 or more? Come on now, if the pace was only 6 rounds, Jeffries and Fitzsimmons fight differently. As it was Fitz, who might have loaded his gloves was taken out when Jeffries decided it was time to press it. Besides, Fitz was far better than O'Brien was in terms of accomplishments in the ring, and a much better pound for pound fighter.

In fact, if you look at that, really, you would expect an Obrien Johnson fight to be made, without question. Until he lost to Ketchell and Langford, he was probably the standout challenger to Johnson title.

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Over Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvey in 1909? I think not. O'Brien did not have much left in 1909. Indeed Ketchel clocked him, then he lost two 6 rounds decisions to a Al Kaufman and those fight took place less than a year after O'Brien meet Johnson. This leads me to believe O'Brien who had tons of fights was on the decline when he meet Johnson.

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

Johnson best filmed performance is Burns. Who says Johnson's best weight was 208? As for Burns, he was at low weight for this fight, and ill. If anyhting Burns needed extra weight in this fight. Instead he came in at his lowest weight in a long time.

So you like the Cyber Boxing Zone, eh? Tell me then, what was the duration in the Johnson vs. Johnson fight according to them.
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Johnson's best filmed performance is a matter of opinion,some might say his total domination of Jeffries.
You have been repeatedly asked by various posters to back up your claims with a primary source you have not done so .
I corrected you on Johnson's weight for the Willard fight and your stupid assertion that Jack Dillon was a viable opponent for him .You did not reply I didn't expect you to, admitting you are wrong is anathema to you.
I have had three P M's this week, from posters laughing at your outlandish claims ,you are a joke, and the only one, not getting the punch line is yourself.
I gave you two posts from the CyberZone, saying Burns best weight was 174-175 which makes your claim of him being 15 pounds underweight total nonsense.
You are in a deep hole stop digging ,you moron atsch
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Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

McGrain :I've asked you to produce a primary source claiming the O'Brien fight was a title fight - you can't.

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If O'brien somehow Ko'd Johnson, do you think he is the next heavyweight champ? I do. My definition is anytime the lineal champion is in the ring in a non exhibition match, his title is on the line.

Box rec says this is a world title match. I sure others would agree. Is that enough for you?

Perhaps you've backed your claim that "The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade"? No. You have not. In fact you've saved me the bother of proving you wrong in that the picture is very, very confused:

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Read what I posted again. More than one paper / reproter thought O'brien was the better. The fact that O'brien who would get creamed by Ketchel and out boxed by the likes of Kaufman post Johnson suggests he was on the decline..yet that was enough to make things close vs a prime Jack Johnson? Use any paper you wish. The fact that O'Brien was competitive here does not enhance Johnson's legacy. Quite the reverse. That is my point.

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

Right, you do it often. You are a guy who claims he always roots for the better man, and you also claim to have a 139 IQ. Nice work.

Let's stay on the subject here, shall we?
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This is the last time I will correct you on my IQ ,which you originally referred to.It was 135 not 139.
Next Rainman:good

mcvey · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

If O'brien somehow Ko'd Johnson, do you think he is the next heavyweight champ? I do. My definition is anytime the lineal champion is in the ring in a non exhibition match, his title is on the line.

Box rec says this is a world title match. I sure others would agree. Is that enough for you?

Read what I posted again. More than one paper / reproter thought O'brien was the better. The fact that O'brien who would get creamed by Ketchel and out boxed by the likes of Kaufman post Johnson suggests he was on the decline..yet that was enough to make things close vs a prime Jack Johnson? Use any paper you wish. The fact that O'Brien was competitive here does not enhance Johnson's legacy. Quite the reverse. That is my point.
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I think we are all aware what your point is, or, rather your agenda :roll:

Mendoza · Dec 14, 2010

mcvey said: ↑

This is the last time I will correct you on my IQ ,which you originally referred to.It was 135 not 139.
Next Rainman:good
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So you claim this time....

Jorodz · Dec 14, 2010

this is heating up! at least those of us (like myself) that don't know the era well (other than ken burns film) are getting to learn a lot on both sides of the argument

MRBILL · Dec 14, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I thought I'd start an open discussion on Johnsons title defense opponents.

Let's examine who the opponent was, what his record was, and how many times he was Ko'd prior and after the title match, and how the match itself went down.

Johnson won the title from 5'7" Burns. There is not doubt Johnson won the match. There is also no doubt Burns was ill and 15 pounds under his ideal weight when the match happened. Burns had a jaundice, and begged the promoter to postpone the fight. He was told if you want to get paid, you fight on schedule. So he did, and Johnson won the title from the shortest champion of all time, who happened to be ill.

Johnson's first official title defense was a 6 round affair ( why not 15 or at least 10? ) vs Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was a very good middle weight. His record coming into the fight was 129 wins, 7 losses and 21 ND/ Draws. Clearly O'Brien was a worthy title opponent. The weights of the fighters were O'Brien at 161 pounds, and Johnson at 205 pounds. Johnson had a 44 pound weight advantage. The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade. After this fight, O'Brien was Ko'd twice. I am not impressed with Johnsons skill or power in this fight. He was the heavyweight. To be shown up and embarrassed by a good middleweight is not the mark of greatness.

Johnson's second title defense was vs Ross. Ross was a " bum " who came into the fight with an 11-9-2 record. Arguably the worst record of any man to receive a lineal title shot. To make matters worse Ross's ring record leading up to the fight was an abysmal 1 win, 4 losses and 2 draws in his last 7 fights. How or why he got a title shot remains a mystery! If someone asks you who was the worst heavyweight contender ever to get a title shot, Ross is good pick. Indeed Ross was KO'd 4 times before meeting Johnson, and 5 times after meeting Johnson. Johnson beat Ross easily enough, but so what. He did not knock him out.

Johnson's third title defense was vs Kaufman. Kaufman was a stiff " White Hope ", but he did have a good ring record of 20-1 coming into the match. He was only KO'd once prior top the match by O'Brien, which was the best fighter he fought in his first 21 fights. Johnson easily defeated Kaufman but could not score a knock down. However it was clear that Kaufman was in fact a nothing special at all. Indeed, he was badly knocked out 4 times after this match.

Johnson's fourth title match was vs Middle Weight champ Stanley Ketchel had a nice record of 51-3-4 coming into the match, but he was only 5'9" and 170 Pounds. Johnson weighed in at 205. This meant that Johnson had a 35 pound advantage in weight. Ketchel had a proven chin at middle weight. Indeed he was only knocked out once. The first 11 rounds of the fight were mostly a boring affair. I do agree that Johnson played a bit with Ketchel, however things got inserting in the 12th round. Ketchel floored Johnson. Johnson was hurt and shaken up, but got up and scored his best Ko on film, but fell down himself during the process. Ketchel was out like a light. Yet Ketchel as a middle weight floored and hurt Johnson with basically the first solid punch he landed during the fight. This has to make me question Johnsons chin, which in previous fights could be exposed by power punchers.

Johnson's fifth title match was vs. Jeffries. Jeffires retired undefeated as the champ, cleaning almost every good fighter in his entire era. Jeffries was 35 years old when the match happened. He was in-active for 6 years, which is a career for some fighters, and lost 100 pounds of fat to get into shape. Never in boxing history has a man been in-active this long and come back to be champion. Johnson was wary of Jeffries early and often clinched. The first four rounds were likely 2-2 on the cards. Jeffries started running out of gas as early as round 5. He was visibly slower than he was in his prime yet he managed to cut Johnson, and nearly knocked Johnson down from body shots of the mid to late rounds of the fight. I have a source if people want to see this. Check the on line Unforgivable Blackness link. Johnson moved in for the kill when Jeffries had nothing left. Jeffries did not quit or foul out like Johnson did in the past. He gave it his best under the circumstances, and went out on his shield. IMO, this fight is what Johnsons legacy is mainly based on because Jeffries was a legendary fighter in his own time. Jeffries was the only really good " name " heavyweight that Johnson beat during his title reign. At least on paper. The match meant little in a boxing sense as many great old champions often lose fights when they are past their primes. Think Louis vs Marciano, or Ali vs Holmes.

Johnson's sixth match was vs Fireman Flynn. Flynn had a record of 29-8 with 14 ND's or draws. He was Ko'd 5 times in prior to the match and 15 times after this match! Johnson failed to floor Flynn. The fight ended when Johnson would hold Flynn's head, and then hit him, while Flynn would foul with head butts. The official result in a dismal match should read Johnson win via DQ in 8.

Johnson's seventh title defense was a sham. He fought black Journeyman Jim " battling " Johnson. Jim Johnson had a very suspect record of 14-12-3 coming into the match. Jim Johnson was Ko'd twice prior to the match and 5 more times after the match. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds of boxing according to the best researched website ( Cyber boxing zone ). NEws reads says Jim Battling was the better!. Somehow, the fight was ruled a draw and Jack Johnson kept his title!

Johnson's eight title match was vs a very mediocre Frank Moran. Moran had a 25-9-4 record coming into this fight. He was Ko'd twice before this fight, and five times after the fight. The fight was shockingly close. Like many of Johnson's other title fights there were no knockdowns. I saw a good 40+ minutes of action that included most of the rounds. Johnson seemed to barely edge Moran.

Johnsons final title match vs Giant Jess Willard. Willard was not very fast or skilled, but he could punch, was durable, and was in his prime. His record was a fair one at 23-5-1. Johnson was older at 37, but Willard himself was no spring chicken at 34. Johnson's weight for this fight was 205, which lower than all of his title fights save one. Eventually Willard's durability and stamina won the day. Johnson slowed down, and then Willard knocked him out with one solid punch. I don't hold this loss against Johnson due to his age, but Willard was likely Johnson's most formidable title opponent.

Summary: Johnson in his title reign only scored two Ko's. They were vs a middle weight and a washed up old x champ. As I chronicled many of the fighters were knocked out before or after facing Johnson, yet Johnson himself failed to score KO or knockdowns. Johnson drew with a middle weight and did not look good ( O' Brien ). He was knocked down by another middle weight. ( Ketchel ) . He got beat on by journeyman is Battling Jim Johnson. Johnson avoided the best challengers in Langford, Smith ( who tko'd him in a 4 round ex match ) , McVey, and Jeanette. Although he was older, Johnson was Ko'd by his toughest title match opponent in Willard.

While Jack Johnson was champ, top fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Luther McCarthy, Gunboat Smith, Sam McVey and Jack Dillon did not get lineal heavyweight title shots.. These men were more formidable than ANY Johnson title defense opponent in the era. You could argue between Willard, Dillon, and McCarthy. Big time money was up to make some of these matches with Langford, Jeanette, or McVey. And let's be honest, Willard was not as a good as Langford, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, or McVey. Duckage thy name is Johnson.

As a title defense run, I rate Johnson's the weakest of all the great champions. Far below Jeffries, Dempseys, Louis, Marcianos, Pattersons Ali, Holmes, Tysons, and Lewis. I continue to believe that Johnson ring prowess pre 1906 was over rated and his title reign was a lack luster run vs fighters who were too small, to old, or simply journeyman.

^^I Might edit and tinker with this post later.
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J.J. fought during an erratic era... STILL! I love this champ and his career, as well as his legacy... He was great... I rank him in my top-5 ATG list of heavy champs... He was odd and special... His overall competition was fine...

I wish Hollywood would do a modern feature film of his life story in boxing, etc...

MR.BILLhat

PATSYS · Dec 15, 2010

In terms of boxing achievement, the win over Jeffries proved very little.

But in terms of social and political relevance, it was probably the most important and most anticipated boxing match in history.

By the way, Johnson has never been a KO artist, An analogy acn probably be drawn of his style to that of Floyd or Whitaker in the sense that they could not KO fighters that are KOed by much lesser fighters.

mcvey · Dec 15, 2010

Mendoza said: ↑

I thought I'd start an open discussion on Johnsons title defense opponents.

Let's examine who the opponent was, what his record was, and how many times he was Ko'd prior and after the title match, and how the match itself went down.

Johnson won the title from 5'7" Burns. There is not doubt Johnson won the match. There is also no doubt Burns was ill and 15 pounds under his ideal weight when the match happened. Burns had a jaundice, and begged the promoter to postpone the fight. He was told if you want to get paid, you fight on schedule. So he did, and Johnson won the title from the shortest champion of all time, who happened to be ill.

Johnson's first official title defense was a 6 round affair ( why not 15 or at least 10? ) vs Jack O'Brien. O'Brien was a very good middle weight. His record coming into the fight was 129 wins, 7 losses and 21 ND/ Draws. Clearly O'Brien was a worthy title opponent. The weights of the fighters were O'Brien at 161 pounds, and Johnson at 205 pounds. Johnson had a 44 pound weight advantage. The fight was ruled a draw, but had a decision been allowed, the news papers suggest O'Brien was the better by a shade. After this fight, O'Brien was Ko'd twice. I am not impressed with Johnsons skill or power in this fight. He was the heavyweight. To be shown up and embarrassed by a good middleweight is not the mark of greatness.

Johnson's second title defense was vs Ross. Ross was a " bum " who came into the fight with an 11-9-2 record. Arguably the worst record of any man to receive a lineal title shot. To make matters worse Ross's ring record leading up to the fight was an abysmal 1 win, 4 losses and 2 draws in his last 7 fights. How or why he got a title shot remains a mystery! If someone asks you who was the worst heavyweight contender ever to get a title shot, Ross is good pick. Indeed Ross was KO'd 4 times before meeting Johnson, and 5 times after meeting Johnson. Johnson beat Ross easily enough, but so what. He did not knock him out.

Johnson's third title defense was vs Kaufman. Kaufman was a stiff " White Hope ", but he did have a good ring record of 20-1 coming into the match. He was only KO'd once prior top the match by O'Brien, which was the best fighter he fought in his first 21 fights. Johnson easily defeated Kaufman but could not score a knock down. However it was clear that Kaufman was in fact a nothing special at all. Indeed, he was badly knocked out 4 times after this match.

Johnson's fourth title match was vs Middle Weight champ Stanley Ketchel had a nice record of 51-3-4 coming into the match, but he was only 5'9" and 170 Pounds. Johnson weighed in at 205. This meant that Johnson had a 35 pound advantage in weight. Ketchel had a proven chin at middle weight. Indeed he was only knocked out once. The first 11 rounds of the fight were mostly a boring affair. I do agree that Johnson played a bit with Ketchel, however things got inserting in the 12th round. Ketchel floored Johnson. Johnson was hurt and shaken up, but got up and scored his best Ko on film, but fell down himself during the process. Ketchel was out like a light. Yet Ketchel as a middle weight floored and hurt Johnson with basically the first solid punch he landed during the fight. This has to make me question Johnsons chin, which in previous fights could be exposed by power punchers.

Johnson's fifth title match was vs. Jeffries. Jeffires retired undefeated as the champ, cleaning almost every good fighter in his entire era. Jeffries was 35 years old when the match happened. He was in-active for 6 years, which is a career for some fighters, and lost 100 pounds of fat to get into shape. Never in boxing history has a man been in-active this long and come back to be champion. Johnson was wary of Jeffries early and often clinched. The first four rounds were likely 2-2 on the cards. Jeffries started running out of gas as early as round 5. He was visibly slower than he was in his prime yet he managed to cut Johnson, and nearly knocked Johnson down from body shots of the mid to late rounds of the fight. I have a source if people want to see this. Check the on line Unforgivable Blackness link. Johnson moved in for the kill when Jeffries had nothing left. Jeffries did not quit or foul out like Johnson did in the past. He gave it his best under the circumstances, and went out on his shield. IMO, this fight is what Johnsons legacy is mainly based on because Jeffries was a legendary fighter in his own time. Jeffries was the only really good " name " heavyweight that Johnson beat during his title reign. At least on paper. The match meant little in a boxing sense as many great old champions often lose fights when they are past their primes. Think Louis vs Marciano, or Ali vs Holmes.

Johnson's sixth match was vs Fireman Flynn. Flynn had a record of 29-8 with 14 ND's or draws. He was Ko'd 5 times in prior to the match and 15 times after this match! Johnson failed to floor Flynn. The fight ended when Johnson would hold Flynn's head, and then hit him, while Flynn would foul with head butts. The official result in a dismal match should read Johnson win via DQ in 8.

Johnson's seventh title defense was a sham. He fought black Journeyman Jim " battling " Johnson. Jim Johnson had a very suspect record of 14-12-3 coming into the match. Jim Johnson was Ko'd twice prior to the match and 5 more times after the match. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds of boxing according to the best researched website ( Cyber boxing zone ). NEws reads says Jim Battling was the better!. Somehow, the fight was ruled a draw and Jack Johnson kept his title!

Johnson's eight title match was vs a very mediocre Frank Moran. Moran had a 25-9-4 record coming into this fight. He was Ko'd twice before this fight, and five times after the fight. The fight was shockingly close. Like many of Johnson's other title fights there were no knockdowns. I saw a good 40+ minutes of action that included most of the rounds. Johnson seemed to barely edge Moran.

Johnsons final title match vs Giant Jess Willard. Willard was not very fast or skilled, but he could punch, was durable, and was in his prime. His record was a fair one at 23-5-1. Johnson was older at 37, but Willard himself was no spring chicken at 34. Johnson's weight for this fight was 205, which lower than all of his title fights save one. Eventually Willard's durability and stamina won the day. Johnson slowed down, and then Willard knocked him out with one solid punch. I don't hold this loss against Johnson due to his age, but Willard was likely Johnson's most formidable title opponent.

Summary: Johnson in his title reign only scored two Ko's. They were vs a middle weight and a washed up old x champ. As I chronicled many of the fighters were knocked out before or after facing Johnson, yet Johnson himself failed to score KO or knockdowns. Johnson drew with a middle weight and did not look good ( O' Brien ). He was knocked down by another middle weight. ( Ketchel ) . He got beat on by journeyman is Battling Jim Johnson. Johnson avoided the best challengers in Langford, Smith ( who tko'd him in a 4 round ex match ) , McVey, and Jeanette. Although he was older, Johnson was Ko'd by his toughest title match opponent in Willard.

While Jack Johnson was champ, top fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Luther McCarthy, Gunboat Smith, Sam McVey and Jack Dillon did not get lineal heavyweight title shots.. These men were more formidable than ANY Johnson title defense opponent in the era. You could argue between Willard, Dillon, and McCarthy. Big time money was up to make some of these matches with Langford, Jeanette, or McVey. And let's be honest, Willard was not as a good as Langford, Jeanette, Gunboat Smith, or McVey. Duckage thy name is Johnson.

As a title defense run, I rate Johnson's the weakest of all the great champions. Far below Jeffries, Dempseys, Louis, Marcianos, Pattersons Ali, Holmes, Tysons, and Lewis. I continue to believe that Johnson ring prowess pre 1906 was over rated and his title reign was a lack luster run vs fighters who were too small, to old, or simply journeyman.

^^I Might edit and tinker with this post later.
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You produced NO primary source to support this, nor can it be found in either of the two acknowledged most authorative biographies of Johnson.Papa Jack, and Unforgivable Blackness .
I have footage of Burns sparring with Al Kaufmann, 9 days prior to facing Johnson ,he looks in fine shape and drops Kaufmann.

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Johnson sparring with Sam Langford

and toying with Jeffries.

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Jack Johnson's title run

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