Jake Lammotas win over Bob Satterfield~

LOL Thank you. You couldnt have dragged Zale, Graziano, or Cerdan into a fight with Robinson with no title on the line and trying to build up a title shot but LaMotta does it 5 times and somehow he gets **** for it.

And just to be clear here. Jake fights Holman Williams who beat Burley, Wade, Moore, Tunero, and Chase. He fought Marshall who beat Burley, and Charles. I could go on but the idea that he was scared of those guys is silly. Show me a promoter who was willing to put up the money for any of these fights because thats how fights are made, not by some fan 70 years later wishing it had happened.

 

It is true that he, like Graziano, was a drawing card, and they had more leverage to pick and choose their opponents than than most fighters. But LaMotta's weight differential pretty much disappeared when he when he was hot on the trail of a title fight in 1948 and '49 and afterward. As for being a mob fighter, he apparently did deal with the mob if one believes his testimony about the Fox fight, but I don't think he was favored by the mob or really benefited much from the deal he thought he made. Except for the Fox fight, he was always at odds with them like Compton says.
Actually, he still had to earn his title shot after the Fox fight by working his way through the list of top contenders like Tommy Yarosz, Laurent Dauthuille, Robert Villemaine, and Joey DeJohn. If he'd lost any of those fights, I'm not sure any supposed deal he made with the mob in the Fox fight would have been honored. So I think both you and Compton make good points. LaMotta managed himself and was an outlier to the mob, but he apparently made the deal with them to get a title shot. But I think as his own manager he was more independent from them than were the managers of champions in the lightweight and welterweight divisions for example.

 

1 loss against Dauthuille and 2 gift decisions in those bouts. The Villemain gift decision was so bad the commision looked at overturning it. The Ring reported was Yarosz a gift decision.

It's safe to say Lamotta was the golden boy for the powers that be. He shouldn't have got a title shot ahead of Robinson, Villemain, Dauthuille or Yarosz. But he got in bed with The Mob in 1947 and got a title shot 2 years later and numerous gift decisions in the interim.

Lamotta might not of being a mob controlled boxer pre '47, but he almost certainly was post '47

 

The Yarosz fight was hardly a robbery. Every report had the fight very close. Close fights going one way or the other arent robberies despite what fans given over to hyperbole may think. A guy who is aggressive, busy, and hard to hurt almost always gets the benefit of the doubt over a guy backpedaling and counter punching in a close fight. And regardless of what you would have liked to have seen happen the Villemain verdict stood. LaMotta did the right thing and gave both Villemain and Dauthille rematches. It would have been nice to see Cerdan step into the ring with both those guys so we could have seen who the best MW in France was but Cerdan ducked both of them. He backed out of a signed contract to fight Villemain in order to fight Dellanoit and lost so its not hard to see Cerdan losing to Villemain as well. Had Villemain not been knocked out by Robinson he would have gotten a MW title shot. But instead Robinson dominated him in one match and knocked him out in another and was given the shot at Jake. If the mob were in control of Jake do you think they would have let him fight a guy who had beaten him four times and risk losing their control of the sports second most lucrative championship to a guy who was not controlled by the mob? No. They wouldnt have. They didnt have control over Jake though so they were just happy to be able to sew up the promotional end of things.

And no, LaMotta was not mob controlled after 1947. Nice try Harry, try again.

BTW, have you ever returned Burley's scrapbook to the family. They want it back...

 

If Jake were not mobbed up and Cerdan was, do you think they’d let Cerdan come across an ocean to fight him?

They did.

Keep up with the illogic.

 

This is a chance to do something I have long wanted to do. What about Robinson fighting middleweights? Robinson has been accused of ducking the Murderer's Row middles. So what is his record against middles during the war years, and then later?

In his first 35 fights up to his first fight with LaMotta, Robinson fights lightweights (when he was) and welters. His heaviest opponent is Fritzie Zivic on 1-16-1942 at 148 (142 - 148)

In his 36th fight on 10-2-1942 he jumps up to fight LaMotta, giving up 13 lbs. (145 - 158) LaMotta is 10 lbs. heavier than any previous Robinson opponent. Robinson wins.

on 11-6-1942 Robinson fights his next biggest opponent with his second biggest during the war years weight deficit, Vic Dellicurti, giving up 9 lbs (145 - 154) Dellicurti was 5' 7" and posted a career record of 39-33-9 with 5 KO victories. He looks to have been an ordinary trial horse type. Apparently a swarmer or mauler with no punch.

in his 41st fight on 2-5-1943, Robinson rematches LaMotta, giving up 16 lbs. (145 - 161) and loses.
on 2-26-1943 he rematches LaMotta, again giving up 16 lbs. (145 - 161) and wins

For the rest of the war years his middle opponents over 155 are:

11-24-1944 Vic Dellicurti (149-158) W
2-23-1945 Jake LaMotta (149-158) W
9-16-1945 Jake LaMotta (150-159) W

So LaMotta seems to have been the only top middle Robinson was fighting. Two questions arise. What about the black Murderer's Row? And why did Robinson or his management rematch and rematch this one bigger man?

in 1946 Robinson, getting heavier himself, begins to fight more middles, but begins with less than top examples, with 3 men with losing records before moving up in class to Levine and Abrams:

3-21-1946 Freddie Flores (150-162) (Flores 18-27-9)
6-12-1946 Freddie Wilson (157-166) (Wilson 11-20)
9-25-1946 Sidney Miller (149-161) (Miller 11-24-5)

11-6-1946 Artie Levine (150-159) KO 10 (Levine 45-9-5)
5-16-1947 Georgie Abrams (151-162) W SD 10 (Abrams 48-6-3)
Robinson struggled with both of these men. He was put down for a 9 count by Levine and later said on TV that this was the hardest punch he was ever hit with. The Abrams fight was a widely booed split decision with both the AP and UPI reporters scoring the fight for Abrams. Robinson later said Abrams was his toughest opponent and made him miss more than anyone.

After that for two years Robinson mainly fights welters until in 1949, and now somewhat heavier, he again turns to the middles, at this point with outstanding success.

8-24-1949 Steve Belloise (154-158) KO 7
10-26-1950 Bobo Olson (158-159) KO 12
12-12-1950 Robert Villemain (156-164) KO 9
2-14-1951 Jake LaMotta (156-160) KO 13

Looking close at Robinson's record against middles, it appears he was anything but dominant until he filled out himself and put on a few lbs. I am certain this will get me some vicious rebuttals, but it is the conclusion I draw.

 

I think that’s pretty fair, but the key observation is “until he filled out himself.”

He was a welter fighting middles. I don’t think it’s incumbent upon him to go up and take on the very best middleweights in the world one after another until he is a true middle, and he did take on some, as you noted.

(Compare to LaMotta, who calls himself a middleweight while fighting at a comfortable 164 and 165 as often as not and rarely actually makes 160 except in a few big fights and title fights — how many true light heavyweights was he taking on when he was, but the rules of weight classes, himself actually a light heavy much of the time when he was feasting on welters.)

 

"If the mob were in control of Jake do you think they would have let him fight a guy who had beaten him four times and risk losing their control of the sports second most lucrative championship"

This makes no logical sense. If they didn't control LaMotta, why did they have him fight for the title against Cerdan if they controlled Cerdan and the title? LaMotta was only the #7 NBA contender in 1949 when he got his shot. They could easily have picked one of the other contenders like Robinson, Belloise, Dauthuille, Lytell, or even Graziano, who was at that point rated above LaMotta.

 

Because they made $100,000 off LaMotta on the fight to say nothing of the purse they stole from Cerdan. Furthermore it wasnt exactly a secret that LaMotta was slipping so it was no guarantee that he would win the title whereas Robinson was a heavy favorite to defeat LaMotta and had done so four times. Why do I have to spell these things out to you guys?? Thats what you guys dont get when you are claiming the mob was doing FAVORS for LaMotta. They didnt do him a favor, HE PAID FOR HIS TITLE SHOT, several times over in fact. He paid by throwing the fight to Fox which got Fox a title shot, won them a lot of money from the gambling on that fight, paid them a substantial bribe in addition to that, and also gave up his purse and while he wasnt owned by the mob he did have to sign a promotional contract with the IBC which had partnered with the mob for his next three title defenses. Belloise, Dauthille, and Lytell couldnt have come up with the same money, gate, etc that LaMotta did so they werent lucrative enough. Robinson was even more independent than LaMotta and hadnt yet sewn up his bonifides for jumping to middleweight. In fact it was LaMotta winning the title that convinced him to make a run at it because he knew he could beat LaMotta. Two months after LaMotta won the title Robinson begins his run and it wasnt until the following year that he was a lock for the championship. Graziano getting another title shot that quickly would have been a travesty and Ive never seen it even discussed that he was a possible matchup for Cerdan. Nevermind the fact that he hadnt fought since being knocked out brutally by Zale in their last fight. That would have been a tough sell. Graziano didnt even deserve the title shot he got against Jake and ducked out of and at least by that point he had some fights under his belt although none were very impressive.

 

Most of the Murders Row was fighting on the west coast. 3000 miles away from Robinson. It has been repeated ad naseum and some boxing fans will never understand this but fighters arent matchmakers and they arent promoters. If a promoter doesnt have the idea that two fighters can draw and doesnt put up the money to get them to fight its not going to happen. We, as fans, can wish all day long that fighter A fought fighter B 70 years ago but if some promoter somewhere didnt try to match two guys who lived 3000 miles apart it wasnt going to happen. Jake and Robinson lived in the same city. Furthermore, regardless of what people want to believe today about the black murderers row those guys didnt draw well enough most of the time, particularly out east, during the period we are discussing to make some promoter sit up and take notice. Why do you think Archie Moore was so bitter for most of his career? He fought for peanuts before he finally won the title and just like LaMotta he had to give up his entire purse to get that shot. Being talented didnt necessarily translate to getting the big fights and despite what fanboys might want to believe more often than not that had to do with their ability to draw, not the fear of their opponents.

 

He CLAIMED he paid for a shot. I’m sure Klompton claims he has the receipt for the payoff.

Guy believes the mob. And LaMotta when it’s convenient (but not Jake’s spleen injury excuse for losing to Fox).

Basically Jake the wife-beater, fight-thrower and all-around horrible human being would never tell a lie about his dealings with the mob, and mobsters would never lie to say they weren’t associated with illegal activities like fixing fights.

Cerdan was a mob guy. Klompton says about 100 times on this thread that the mob protected other guys from non-mob guys and wouldn’t let them fight them. But when Cerdan fights LaMotta, all of a sudden a mob guy comes across an ocean to fight a guy who he claims wasn’t mobbed up.

His inability to see basic facts is astounding.

Even Klompton agrees that:

LaMotta threw at least one fight for the mob.

LaMotta was given a title shot by the same mob, as thanks for throwing the fight (but suddenly it’s because of a payoff, so why did he have to throw the fight?)

LaMotta, per Klompton, even sold real estate (venues) to the mob at cut-rate prices.

That’s called being in bed together. Yet in his mind this is proof that Jake WASN’T mobbed up, lol.

If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, it’s a rat.

 

Since LaMotta throwing a fight for the mob means he was being helped by them, does that mean Joe Gans was being propped up by the white supremacist boxing promotors of the early 1900's, since he throw a fight for them?

This really isn't an era I know a ton on, but I'm really struggling to follow ome of the logic in this thread.

 

Thomas Myler in his book"Boxing's Hall Of Shame",states Lamotta had to pay Cerdan's connections $20,000 on top of what he paid the mob,have you any info on this?

 

It has some interesting posts though, don't you think.And one off the cuff aside from Klompy that I find revealing.