Jake LaMotta and weight advantages

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, May 30, 2013.


  1. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    How is it that the Raging Bull ended up in so many fights against opponents where he held a significant weight advantage?

    Looking at his record, I see a ton of fights (and not just the Robinson epics) where he came in at the high end of the middleweight spectrum, or even above it, and his opponent was on the low end, in the lower 150s or even 140s.

    I never see this discussed in relation to LaMotta's resume, nor seen an explanation for how this happened so often. Quite frankly, if a middleweight today feasted on so many true welters and junior middles he would be criticized and called a fraud for it and people would demand that he pick on someone his own size rather than padding his record against smaller opponents.

    In short, it looks like he was being protected.

    And while LaMotta's chin is legendary, in perfect fact he was more often than not taking punches from smaller men. If he regularly fought full-blown middleweights, it's possible that iron jaw would have been cracked. I wouldn't applaud Marvin Hagler's chin if most of his opponents were 150-pounders, nor, I suspect, would most of the knowing coves of the ESB Classic community.

    Does anyone know if all those fights when he came in at 164 or 162 1/2 against someone else who was under 160 were contracted at middleweight? It's common for non-title fights, especially in those days, to be at the weight limit plus-1 (i.e. 161 for a middleweight) and it's amazing so many of his opponents managed to make weight when he didn't.

    There was no shortage of true middleweights in his day, and if he couldn't make middle he certainly didn't seek out a lot of true quality light heavyweights to balance it out -- where he would be giving up the weight advantage.

    I think this is a serious knock against him when considering his place in the all-time middleweight ranks. I'd love to know more, because as I look at others in his era I just don't see anyone doing this with such regularity. It can't have been an accident.
     
  2. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict

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    He was 3-1 against welterweight Fritzie Zivic, at the end of Zivic's career. Two of the wins were split decisions, and Fritzie fought the other one handed. He described LaMotta as a guy where you could "throw a punch behind your back and hit him."
     
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  3. john garfield

    john garfield Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's funny just reading the suggestion LaMotta was protected...like some delicate flower. Knew Jake well. He was a beast, specially outta the ring
     
  4. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I don't doubt he was a brute, in life and in the ring.

    A legit tough-guy who is no delicate flower can still be protected record-wise by being put in with smaller men.

    You knew him, you were around: why were so many of his fights basically against welters? Why did he often show up around 165 to fight guys who were coming in at 158 or 156? We're not talking about one fight or three or five -- it's basically most of the fights in his prime.

    Why?
     
  5. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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  6. john garfield

    john garfield Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Don't know the answer, Sp, but Jake woulda fought 'n Abrams Tank
     
  7. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What does it mean for his legacy?

    How would you feel about Hagler if so many of his fights were against the likes of a 151-pound Pipino Cuevas, a 149-pound Randy Shields, 155-pound Rocky Mattioli and Gianfranco Rossi, etc. -- and in many of those fights Marvin had come in at 162 to 166 pounds? And what if Leonard had come in at 145 and beaten him, or Hearns at 148?

    I think people would look at Hagler a lot differently. But with Jake it's just "pay no attention to that, he was really tough."
     
  8. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was basically a supermiddleweight before the super middle division existed.

    He did step up and face the very hard punching Bob Satterfield (who also fought at heavy) and stopped him. He took Satterfield's best shots before finally wearing Bob down and getting the win in the 7th.
     
  9. john garfield

    john garfield Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I put no stock in any of that. Stats make my eyes glaze over. Jake's career speaks for itself. One-on-one, he'd drink your blood -- the toughest nut in the woods.
     
  10. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    On a completely different note, he beat a one-armed man for the title and lost his next fight.

    And I get that he was a super middleweight, but that only more begs the question of why he feasted so often on welters.
     
  11. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As long as Hags was fighting and beating the top middleweights in between clashing with welters, I'd have no problem with it.

    LaMotta was fighting just about any MW who would lace up the gloves with him while fighting welters. Maybe it was just to keep busy and make sure money was coming in. It's anyone's guess.

    I think subjecting Rocky Graziano to the "fighting welters" criticism was more pertinent because he literally circumvented every ranking MW while ascending to an undeserved title shot.
     
  12. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Satterfield didn't land too many hard clean punches, and when he did, they did worry LaMotta. Anyway, so many boxers beat Satterfield that it means nothing.
     
  13. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    only if u suppose det dis fait woz 4eal ,
    i du not 4 1
     
  14. thistle1

    thistle1 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    people are selective and can null out certain facts, Jake was a big MW for his time weight wise.

    But CATCHWEIGHT contest were the norm Top fighters jumping weights all the time and only fighting within the limit when required too.

    Jake did lose to some smaller guys and didn't fight too many big guys, but he was still a top dawg and no easy meat, even though he is overrated!

    WW's were also MWs, many MWs were also L-HWs, or perhaps the better word was competed at, such were the times. some jumped weights often some capitalised on their slightly bigger advantage LaMotta was one of them.
     
  15. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hi wud hev fot N Abrams Tank , but not Ezzard Charles , Archie Wright or even Charles Burley by accident , not "even" Giuseppe Bernardinelli or Eddie Booker .

    Sure (det) U du not now de answer (still) ?

    veri gud tred 4 a cheinj BTW