Jake LaMotta vs. Marvin Hagler. Battle of the Legends.

Russell · Mar 6, 2008

Wait, one of those guys thinks LaMotta "clearly" had the better chin?

dpw417 · Mar 6, 2008

Sonny Carson said:

This is Raging Bull**** but what could you expect from a guy with your name. Hagler would win a decision definitely. Hagler won the first Vito fight 11 rounds to 4 with 1 even. Hagler did have to alot of respect for Vito's durability and didn't press for the knockout. Hagler has all the physical advantages against LaMotta, I don't see Jake winning.
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Raging B( )ll is one of the most knowledgeable, and impartial posters on this board...and I count him as a friend, and a real good stand up guy...You are entitled to your opinion re Hagler/LaMotta, but your obnoxious remarks are really uncalled for. Get some class.

Raging B(_)LL · Mar 6, 2008

Sweet Pea said:

No, he wasn't too quick on his feet, though his movement was rather good, it was that he was simply a more skilled boxer, a very good counter-puncher, good movement with his legs and underrated upper body movement. What I see in this is what he would outpoint LaMotta handily. LaMotta had decent head movement of his own, and great durability, but Hagler was a step above in terms of offense, in every aspect.
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I won`t even disagree with what you wrote above, as I agree with everything except the outpointing him handily part. But even though he was an excellent counter-puncher, I doubt that that alone would see him edge Jake convincingly. It is not as if LaMotta hadn`t faced good counter-punchrs during his time and did not come out on top, Bert Lytell and Holman Williams come to mind just to name two, and Lytell was a southpaw as well who was very highly regarded in his time.

He was even quicker on his feet just like Hagler, had excellent countering skills and a good southpaw jab yet Jake nullified all those attributes by getting inside on him quickly and thus taking away his most effective weapon which was his jab. His body attack in close made sure that he would slow down as the fight progressed and it just made it easier for him to close the gap on his more skillfull foe. So taking that into account I do not see why he could not do the same to Hagler, even though I am well awar Hagler was the better fighter.

Robinson implied a stick and move style early on in the fight, with flurries at certain points, but I don't think LaMotta was much stronger if at all than Hagler also, and he wasn't as sound, accurate, or timed with his punches, which was one of the main reasons for me taking Hagler to outdo him on the inside. I don't think LaMotta's pressure and high output outdoes Hagler's movement and accuracy. I think he'd hit LaMotta with the much better shots.

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I wasn`t reffering to LaMotta`s final bout versus Robinson in which he was a walking corpse, but their previous bouts rather. Robinson was in his prime during those fights, and still found it difficult to keep him at arms lenght for long stretches in each of their fights. As for how they would do on the inside against one another, I think it is important to keep in mind here that Jake was unquestionably the naturally bigger fighter, and he was renowned in his day for his physical strenght.

And I disagree with your assertion that Jake wasn`t as accurate with his punches, when did you see him miss several punches in a row? He was pretty accurate if you ask me, and I doubt that Jake will have a hard time landing on Hagler`s midsection if they are engaged in trench warfare. You can slip a punch to the head, but to the body is another story altogether and they will take their toll on Marvin down the stretch.

he didn't overextend himself early, and instead opted to get at Jake late, after conserving energy, and ended up stopping him. Robinson was an offensive machine, but he was not as big or strong as Hagler at MW, and while he threw better combos, he didn't have a better jab, and based on what I've seen, his counter-punching skills, while very good, were not better than Hagler's, who I consider very underrated in that department.
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Again, I was reffering to the other LaMotta/Robinson fights, not their final meeting in which Ray faced a dead man who was nowhere near the fighter he had been several years earlier when they first started their series. I should have made that clear in my original post, so my bad. I do agree with you however that Hagler was an excellent counter-puncher, but wether he was better than Ray that is up for debate.

I don't think he'd not miss a punch, but I certainly think he'll land the cleaner, more meaningful blows, the ones the judges will count more.
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Maybe, maybe not, but I think that Jake`s body of work would catch their attention, as well as his aggression and determination which is something that cannot be overlooked.

I don't think he corners Hagler like he did Robinson because: Robinson wasn't as good on the inside. He was a very good body-puncher, but when roughed up, he was not on his A game, while Hagler had no trouble with this, and in fact seemed to eat up fighters who came to him. His game was based on that style in his prime days against the fighter like Vito, Hamsho, etc.
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While Robinson may not have been as good on the inside as Hagler, what does that have to do with wether or not Hagler will be cornered? He will acquit himself better in close than Robinson would have, but that does not equate to him not getting bulled into the ropes during the fight. As for the fighters that Hagler ate up when they came to him, surely you will agree that the likes of Hamsho, Vito and Mugabi among others are not in the same league as a peak LaMotta?

They came in a straight line and got chewed up (Vito in the return) but LaMotta had more defensive ability than either of those guys, and also held the edge in terms of durability over those guys. So while he may have looked like a million bucks against those fighters what will he do against someone who bobs and weaves his way in on him and only offers the top of his head as a target? My guess is that he won`t look nearly as destructive, especially when he is facing someone who can take it just as well as he can.

He wouldn't opt to, but at times the fight would be there, I don't think he'd be out of his element. I count on Hagler's ability to counter and hit the pressure fighters with accurate shots when they're coming in. That would work to his advantage with LaMotta, as Jake is just that type of fighter. I think Hagler would have more success when he had LaMotta at range, looking to come in, than he would on the inside, but he wouldn't be out of his element, as I said.
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He wouldnt be out of his element, but he sure wouldn`t be in his comfort zone either. And as for Hagler nailing him on the way in, I addressed that in my previous paragraph.

Again, it's Hagler's ability to counter on fighters boring in that is his advantage in this fight. His own strength and toughness will allow him to cope with LaMotta's, and his skills give him the edge, especially the ones(and one) I've brought up, his ability to counter and pick off pressure fighters.
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Again, I address the above point you made in a previous paragraph. In closing let me say that I do appreciate Hagler as a fighter and enjoy watching his fights, but for me he is not necessaily better than many fomrer great middles who while they may not have accomplished as much or racked up as many title defenses, they were just as good as he was. Unfortunately they came up in an era of only one champ against a much more talented crop of fighters, and as such incurred more losses along the way.
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Raging B(_)LL · Mar 6, 2008

brooklyn1550 said:

What makes you think Hagler was a scumbag?
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I won`t go into details at the moment as I am off to bed, but I will give the board a little insight into just what kind of person Hagler was tomorrow. And as for you Russell, I`m a big boy and I can take the insults, but seriously there is no need to be so touchy just because you disagree with what I have to say. As for Dan and Sweet Pea, thanks for the kudos and I think both of you are stand-up guys as well and I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

G`night fellas....

Russell · Mar 6, 2008

Erm, what did I say against you, Bull?

I was commenting on one of the historians/experts from the original post.

Sweet Pea · Mar 6, 2008

Russell said:

Erm, what did I say against you, Bull?

I was commenting on one of the historians/experts from the original post.
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He confused you with Sonny Carson I believe.

laxpdx · Mar 6, 2008

Hagler is the clearly the better fighter. LaMotta is an agressive puncher with toughness second to none. Which would make him a formidable foe, but Hagler would win by UD.

Dave's Top Ten · Mar 6, 2008

Raging B(_)LL said:

I won`t go into details at the moment as I am off to bed, but I will give the board a little insight into just what kind of person Hagler was tomorrow. And as for you Russell, I`m a big boy and I can take the insults, but seriously there is no need to be so touchy just because you disagree with what I have to say. As for Dan and Sweet Pea, thanks for the kudos and I think both of you are stand-up guys as well and I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

G`night fellas....
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Who cares if Hagler was an ass. From what I read in Raging Bull Lamotta wasn't exactly an angel. He was a self confessed ******, wife beater and all round thug. So WTF?! Totally irrelevant to the debate. A peak Hagler would decision Lamotta in a great fight with Jake coming on strong in the later rounds. But just like the first Vito fight, Hagler would be a pretty comfortable winner.

Russell · Mar 6, 2008

laxpdx said:

Hagler is the clearly the better fighter. LaMotta is an agressive puncher with toughness second to none. Which would make him a formidable foe, but Hagler would win by UD.
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LaMotta was still downed, where Hagler has no legit knockdowns against him.

There's really no comparison who faced the bigger punchers. Eugene Hart and Tommy Hearns are some of the P4P hardest hitters of all time.

JohnThomas1 · Mar 7, 2008

Raging B(_)LL said:

I think Sal Rappa`s outlook on how this fight would unfold is closest to my own, and I really don`t understand how most people on this board seem to dissmiss LaMotta`s chances outright against most top middles...this honestly baffles me. Now I will say something that may surprise some, but I`ve always felt that Hagler was grossly overrated as a fighter.

Don`t get me wrong folks, he was a fine fighter and would have held his own with most, but I feel much the same way about him as John Thomas does and I will leave it at that. I also never cared about him as a person and have been told some things about him from people who knew him personally one of them being his own son from Hagler`s first marriage, and let me tell you folks this man was a completely self centered ******* and a real **** as a human being.

He had a huge ego and thought he was unbeatable in his own mind, but when faced by someone who wasn`t in the least intimidated by him or his aura he could be unsettled and intimidated, there I said it. Vito didn`t give him no respect and wasn`t afraid of him, and he managed to get a draw. Now for my money LaMotta was a much, much better fighter overall than Vito and I know for damn sure he wouldn`t have been intimidated by Hagler.

Now if limited Vito could bring Hagler to the brink, then LaMotta damn sure could have done better and beaten him on his best night. Hell, he beat Ray Robinson at the mans peak yet he isn`t going to beat Hagler? I`m sorry but I dont buy that for a second. I see LaMotta going in there with that "**** you and the horse you rode in on" kind of attitude and taking the fight to Hagler from the start, looking to impose his physical strenght on him in close.

Hagler would probably try to stick and move much the same way he did against an ancient Briscoe and Vito the first time around, but LaMotta was a better fighter than both and applied more pressure than either man. As the fight drags on I see Hagler gradually slowing down and becoming more stationary and this will only favour the stronger LaMotta. Either way, I believe Jake takes the fight and by a convincing margin down the stretch at that.

Now I know most of you will probably say I`m off my rocker for picking LaMotta and thats fine with me, but I stand by my opinion and thats that. Again, I never understood why he gets placed on a pedestal by so many... I mean he was a good fighter but was he really THAT good that only a select few fighters could have bested him? In my opinion most certainly not, but I guess I am in the minority.
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Well god help me, i'm not alone after all, and seeing such an esteemed and respected analysist mirroring my own thoughts makes me feel comfortable in my stance.

Welcome to the small, but strong minority.

Senya13 · Mar 7, 2008

If we gonna pick up the Brisco and Antuofermo fights, fine. Anybody thinks Hagler won't be able to do better than Dauthuille and Hairston, who soundly outboxed LaMotta, from outside and inside?

mcvey · Mar 7, 2008

dpw417 said:

The following is an article from The Ring August '95.
Jake LaMotta vs. Marvin Hagler.

Teddy Brenner, who lives in New York City, is considered the greatest matchmaker in boxing history.
Brenner- LaMotta was underated as a boxer. When He fought Ray Robinson, he was able to jab with him. He was a very versatile fighter. At times you'd even have called him a boxer. Defensively, he gave you the top of his head and nothing else. He was a short fighter who made himself shorter. He tucked in his chin and you had to punch down at him. He also took the beat punch of anyone I ever saw. When he suffered his first knockdown against Danny Nardico, he was all done by then. And Nardico had him by about 15 pounds.
Hagler can be compared to LaMotta in that he had a great chin. He was also versatile. He could handle any style, as his record suggests, and he was a southpaw who was really ambidextrous. Hagler was a throwback to the fighters of the '40's and '50's. He would've held his own with the best of any era. He was a matchmaker's dream because you always knew you had a fight with him. During my years at Top Rank, he was one of my favorite fighters.
This is one of the matchups I wish I could have made. The fight would be Katy-bar-the-door from the start. Both guys would walk to each other. When you think of the first Hagler-Antuofermo bout, you have to give LaMotta a slight edge. It would be a distance fight, with LaMotta winning by decision.

Al Certo, managed Mustafa Hamsho, who lost world title bouts to Hagler in '81 and '84. Certo currently handles two division former world champion Buddy McGirt.
Certo- In LaMotta's mind, he actually believed nobody could lick him, and that worked in his favor. He was just a tough sonuvabitch. He had durability, and he was much harder to hit than it looked. Stylewise, it would seem he would be made to order for Hagler, but I don't think Haglerwould be able to put up withthe bodyshots and pressure LaMotta would apply.
I hate to put a guy down, but Hagler wasn't the middleweight everyone thinks he was. He licked everybody, but if you compare him to the middleweights of yesteryear, he was just another fighter. I think Joey Giardello would have put him in his hip pocket. Hagler was a busy fighter and a southpaw, which made him more difficult, and he was good enough to beat the talent that was around. The first time Mustafa Hamsho fought him, he didn't know who Hagler was so he went in with his face. He thought he was fighting Betty Boop. The second time he wanted to box, but his legs were gone and he was already shot.
Hagler didn't have the style to box LaMotta. To have a chance to win, he'd have to punch with him. Neither guy would take a backward step. The late rounds would be the key. Hagler had a good chin, so it would problably go the distance. LaMotta by close decision.

Sal Rappa is a Long Island-based boxing historian. He is on th evoting committee of the International Boxing Hall of Fame and works as a consultant for HBO.
Rappa- This would be a match made in heaven. Both Hagler and LaMotta were great middleweights in their respective times. Hagler was the superior stand off boxer on the outside and perhaps the harder puncher, while LaMotta clearly had the better chin and was the more efficient infighter. Their fight would be a war.
Hagler sometimes had a difficult time with aggressive fighters. This was proven in his first title fight with Vito Antuofermo. Antuofermo, who was really a blown up welterweight, had a move forward, take charge style and he held Hagler to a draw. As for LaMotta, his six very close fights with the great Sugar Ray Robinson serve as testimony to his boxing ability.
I see LaMotta moving forward and applying a great deal of pressure against sharp shooter Hagler. Marvelous Marvin would do well on the outside, scoring points from his southpaw stance, but not being able to hurt "The Bronx Bull". In turn, LaMotta would score heavily during the inside fighting. I believe LaMotta fought in a much tougher era, and the competition he faced would give him a small edge. Ultimately, his aggressive style would enable him to win a hard fought and close 15 round decision.

What does the ESB board think?
Opinions please.
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Hagler has this image as a monster,he wasnt ,he was a skilled ring mechanic with a good variety of accurate punches,and fine balance .Couple that with a top chin and allways being in great shape ,and you have a fighter very difficult to beat,he could be tentative,as against Antuofermo ,and Duran ,I dont think he really was comfortable against swarmers,but he beat all styles.Jake was Jake,at you for 15 rds,deceptively adept at slipping punches ,he took a lot on the top of his head,he had pretty fair hand speed, a chin that is comparable with Haglers ,and made up for his lack of top power by the frequency of his punches.Lamotta could look average against 2nd raters ,but he could look good against the cream too,he had tremendous self belief.Hagler would try and time him coming in with that southpaw jab,but Jake would be looking to get under it and pound the body with short hooks from both hands.Lamotta,s power ,wasnt terrific ,but he got your attention,he hit hard enough to put SRR down,and his relentless pressure meant that he wore out a lot of guys he wouldnt wear out the Marvelous one but Marvin would have to be on the top of his game to eke out a split dec.imo.

Sweet Pea · Mar 7, 2008

Russell said:

LaMotta was still downed, where Hagler has no legit knockdowns against him.

There's really no comparison who faced the bigger punchers. Eugene Hart and Tommy Hearns are some of the P4P hardest hitters of all time.
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LaMotta went up to Heavyweight and went to a Decision with monster puncher Bob Satterfield, as well as taking flush shots in 6 fights with Robinson, so I think their definitely is a comparison.

fists of fury · Mar 7, 2008

Raging B(_)LL said:

I also never cared about him as a person and have been told some things about him from people who knew him personally one of them being his own son from Hagler`s first marriage, and let me tell you folks this man was a completely self centered ******* and a real **** as a human being.

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And yet Jake was such a sweetheart. :hi:

JohnThomas1 · Mar 7, 2008

mcvey said:

Hagler has this image as a monster,he wasnt ,he was a skilled ring mechanic with a good variety of accurate punches,and fine balance .Couple that with a top chin and allways being in great shape ,and you have a fighter very difficult to beat,he could be tentative,as against Antuofermo ,and Duran ,I dont think he really was comfortable against swarmers,but he beat all styles.Jake was Jake,at you for 15 rds,deceptively adept at slipping punches ,he took a lot on the top of his head,he had pretty fair hand speed, a chin that is comparable with Haglers ,and made up for his lack of top power by the frequency of his punches.Lamotta could look average against 2nd raters ,but he could look good against the cream too,he had tremendous self belief.Hagler would try and time him coming in with that southpaw jab,but Jake would be looking to get under it and pound the body with short hooks from both hands.Lamotta,s power ,wasnt terrific ,but he got your attention,he hit hard enough to put SRR down,and his relentless pressure meant that he wore out a lot of guys he wouldnt wear out the Marvelous one but Marvin would have to be on the top of his game to eke out a split dec.imo.
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Very decent post.

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