James J Corbett Vs Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea

I think you are on the defensive now and as always when I reply as I showed you five men in the hall of fame that Corbett beat

If you read the fights in the papers, you see that McCoy vs Corbett was a savage fight. Hardly tame.

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, Oh Choynski was a novice, but Sam Mcvey ( a teenager ) and Joe Jeannette ( losing records in some fights vs Johnson ) for Johnson were not?

And heck yes, you mention Choynski was the hardest hitter many times, I say to help absolve some of the blame for him Ko'ing Jack Johnson so easily and early.

Yet Choynski who landed hard on Corbett doesn't count? Nice one!

Ps: Sullivan was 33 for Corbett. Why do you always have errors with the ages of the fighters you desperately try to disparage? In this case, making Sullivan older than he was. Mitchell was 32 for Corbett, fighting class guys the year before without losing.

 

Ill never be on the defensive against you don't worry about that! There are plenty of heavyweights in the hall of fame that wouldn't go 2 rds with David Price it means jack ****. Choynski had three fights under his belt when he fought Corbett who was the SF AC boxing instructor and their heavyweight champion. I've never said Choynski is the hardest hitter I said several heavyweight champions said he was.

Now I challenge you to prove I'm wrong!
Produce a post by me in which I SAY Choynski is the hardest hitter! Put up or shut up!
I said twice in my two posts Sullivan was a month off 34 years old get someone to read it for you, you dumb ****!

Mitchell wasn't losing because he was fighting no decision bouts you moron, only one of his prior 7 fights had a verdict rendered!!
Five foot nine Mitchell was 165lbs for the Corbett fight and he is Corbett's second best win!

 

I could be well off with this but at the moment I am under the impression that black boxing in america was much more glove, queensberry, and defense friendly from a much earlier time than american whites.

It seems like Daniel Mendoza's influence didn't really take in the UK like it did in America and he was pretty much unknown to the rest of the world. Daniel gives us movement, then he trains Richmond who gives us counterpunching and Richmond then trains Molyneaux who becomes the poster boy for how to be successful as a black man in boxing. So much so just about every good black man that came after Tom is compared to him at some point in their career if not nicknamed after him. Young Molyneaux, Aaron Molyneaux Hewlett, etc.

From there you've Kevin R Smith's books that seem in directly charge Molyneaux-Cribb with the motivation behind early black fighters seeking fortune in England until the rise of Richard K Fox and his black coverage in the states followed by his colored title. You read all about how this guy or that guy who was a terrific boxer, sparred using gloves, and favored defense and a long contest to a flash KO.

What my point is, is I don't reckon Jim's tricks were all that tricky to the black community. I'm not very impressed by what I've seen and read juxtaposed to what the colored title fellas were up to. If anything he seems a bit like an Elvis style character. He started doing what colored hw champions had been doing since like 1810 and got called a genius and innovator because black didn't sell. Then again I could just be educated enough to have very ignorant opinions.

 

Corbett's power seems to have been devastating against men smaller than himself.

Against men bigger than himself, he seemed to hurt them all including Jeffries, but he could never put them away.

 

It took him 26 rounds to stop a washed up Sullivan maybe he didn't
want to take any chances ,and maybe he was enjoying himself, but 26 rounds?

 

TBH I think at least a couple KO's were caused by them cheeks. Watch the Fitzsimmons film and pay attention to where he's looking....it took a while for the Ruby One to concentrate long enough to unleash the solar plexus bomb.

 

Molyneaux ushered in black boxing, as far as Kevin is concerned anyway. He does seem to be "the man" when it comes to the subject of black boxing history so just finding a dissenting opinion is a bit tricky given things that came after Black Genesis, like Colleen's Essays, rely heavily on the info in Black Genesis. Leaving me with one real authority's opinion being repeated in new words by others. I've yet to read or even attain all of the K Fox originals.

I'll try my best, but I dont have this bit OCR'd and it has been a minute since I read the book, Mister Smith:

"The rise and fall of Tom Molineaux certainly had it's effect on prizefighting. Not only had his emergence brought new interest in boxing, but also a new division of fighting men; black prizefighters."

Harry Sutton, Young Massa, Joe Stephenson, Sam Robinson, and a fella known as Cropley's Black were all apparently inspired by Tom and considering the state of affairs I reckon it's amazing we even have five names from 1815ish just about five years after Molineaux...I can't remember if that was 1810 or 1811 so it tom vs tom was 1811 then in 1816, five years, five new fighters show up in history. When Tom and Tom fought there were two.

by 1820 Richmond had a troll named Kendrick, sometimes called Massa Kendrick, who came to Bill's tavern specifically to antagonize a fight out of him because Kendrick wanted a piece of a Bill Richmond level purse. I don't remember if they fought.

Also in 1820 Jemmy Johnson goes to Bill Richmond for training, Bill gives it to him.

Thomas Morgan comes in around 1825 as Molineaux The Second.

by the 1830s and 40s you get the fellas I named, Young Molineaux (KO'd Jack Hammer Lane) and Aaron Molyneaux Hewlett.

I think it's about that time, in the 1830s or so when black men stop going to England and just fight other black men in America. Right around the time the English are coming here to have an English champion defend his title against an English challenger on American soil black fighters stop going to England and start fighting at home while foreign blacks come here.

We're into the era of Yankee Sullivan, Hammer Lane, Tom Hyer, Deaf Burke, Jem Ward, etc. Not exactly the height of boxing defense in the story of white boxing. I don't know much about the 1820's champion Tom Spring but apparently he was quite scientific. Tom Cannon however was hitter, not a boxer, and by Jem Ward forget about it. In the states the first white American champion Tom Hyer is a rough and tumble fighter. He doesn't fight a dandy's fight, he's lucky to remember the LPR rules. Sullivan, Morrissey, Poole, all thugs. Great stories, great fighters, **** boxers.

1850s we have The Tipton Slasher and Morrissey. Smith claims the lack of black boxing history from the 1840 to the 1870s is because America was taking over as the boxing state and the prejudice American media refused to cover it to any considerable and archiavable degree.

So the period you're speaking about what with Mace and all has no black equivalent to look at that I'm aware of. You might get an anecdote about a black fighter here or there but nothing major, no narratives or records.

But it does seem to me like Mace is borrowing from Mendoza-Richmond- Molyneaux and the men who came after. Even after Mace's influence on mainstream boxing black boxing culture seems much more accepting of Queensberry rules and gloves in general. Don't get me wrong there are guys like Morris Grant and what not but it seem like the opposite story to the white end. It seems like black boxers both in the 1810s-1840s then again in the 1870s-88 were mostly defense orientated with the odd bruiser here and there while the white folks were more offensively driven with the odd "scientific boxer" here in there. not using quotes douchey like just references the phrase we all know they liked to use.

Unfortunately I've never taken the time to really dig in so I don't honestly know, but I am very confident Mendoza invented defense, Richmond trained the next generation, Molyneaux inspired generations until Godfrey pops up, and most of the men in any period are defensive fighters.

Edit- Had to do some manual spell checking...dunno why. sorry, m unchecked typing is always horrible.

Also, I feel like I got tired of typing and didn't wrap this back around to Jim, Joe, and Sam.

My point is simple, if black boxing culture invented, neutered, and kept the secrets of boxing defense until Mace at best and Corbett at worst then I don't think Corbett would even be as good at defensive strategy and how to break it as the fellas who were trained in a similar fashion their entire careers.

Also, again, I should say I don't really know what I'm talking about. In my defense the historians have not seen fit to even mention Mendoza in any books about Molineaux. Not even Billy C.'s brand new book on Tom. That doesn't really have anything to do with my point I'm just saying given historians write about one man at a time it's kind of difficult to really understand the influence of any one guy or the flow of that influence.

Mendoza isn't really apart of the story of black boxing, he's not black, but he did train the man who trained the man who inspired the men...So I feel like he does deserve some mention. Especially given this: how else one explain the English's vehement backing of their proper englishman champion? Mendoza really, really, twisted their nipples and primed the scene for fervent English pride to translate into win at all cost tactics. They didn't even dislike Tom or Bill, they respected them as best I can tell, but they cheated the **** out of those men because Daniel The Jew Mendoza antagonized the public to the point where the English were fine with cheating as long as the right man won starting with Gentleman John Jackson who held Mendoza by the ponytail and bludgeoned him.

Even by 18th century standards that's some blatant cheating. Apparently it was so evident that the English would be fine with a by any means necessary approach that Mendoza wasn't even upset with John. He knew it was coming and didn't take it personally or hold John personally accountable. So by the time Richmond, trained and backed by Mendoza himself, shows up the English already know how to deal with him and Molyneaux obviously would have never been good enough not matter how good he was. ... No author thinks that's important though...that I'm aware of. I'm not sure why, but the only way you get that narrative is if you piece together yourself. To do the whole story, from Mendoza to at least Louis, would be book worthy in itself I'd reckon.

 

Not to my knowledge.

 

Correction it was nearly 10 minutes.Here is the info.
At Hazards Pavilion on October 18th,he tore into Denver Ed Martin from the opening bell,knocking him out in the second round.Martin was unconscious for so long-nearly ten minutes-that the police entered the ring,ready to arrest Johnson for assault,and most of the crowd left the building for fear they might be seized as accessories.
After Martin recovered a relieved Johnson spoke to the remaining spectators."I want Mr Jeffries next," he told them."I think I am entitled to a fight with him and it was to prove that I am right that I went in this way tonight."
The Police Gazette concurred.
"The crude ,uncouth,unpopular giant Jeffries fought Peter Jackson,old and war weary,HankGriffin a third rater,and Bob Armstrong who hustled him for ten rounds.
This trio was black.Why will he not give Johnson a match?
Here is a man who can fight and is willing to do so .
Jeffries doesn't defend his position,but rather arbitrarily determines that he has the best right to say whom he will fight
."I do not care if Johnson licks the Japanese Army",he says,"I have repeatedly declared that so long as I am in the fighting business I will never make a match with a black man.The negroes my come and negroes may go and some of them maybe excellent fighting men .
Just tell the public that James J Jeffries has made up his mind that he will never put on boxing gloves to give battle to an Ethipopian".Pages 68 &69 Unforgivable Blackness Geoffrey C Ward.

 

Still waiting for the posts in which you say, I said Choynski was the hardest hitter? Are they perhaps in a drawer with all the $30,000 purse offers that you say Jack Johnson refused? lol!

 

You say it by quoting others multiple times, we can see what you are saying. There is no part of your face that isn't covered with egg.

It is know that Johnson backed out of a signed title match vs Langford. FACT.

It is also know that Jeffries did consider Johnson as a title opponent in the press post 1904. FACT.

Thread link:

[url]https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/hardest-punch-jeffries-ever-received-was-a-french-kick.560396/#post-17805262[/url]

 

And what did Ward say about Jack Johnson quitting vs Klondike?!. Why don't you show the board and by doing so prove you can be objective? I highly doubt you have the stones to do it. Your a pick and choose agenda guy. Prove me wrong by doing it! Here's your chance. Your memory is terrible, and your facts and #'s often wrong.