james j jeffries ATG NO!

Martin was good enough for Ruhlin to give exhibitions with but not to face in the ring , he was like Sharkey , he went with the flow and took on vanilla hued fighters.

 

I am certain some racism factored in opinions on Jeffries placed with some but not all. Many of the time even into the Dempsey and Louis era still considered him an ATG.

 

Yes they did.

 

Welcome to the board Rich.

Many historians placed Johnson very high at the time ( #1, #2, #3 ), even though his behavior was at times outrageous. Others felt Langford was a great one, in some cases top 5 pre Joe Louis.

And everyone of the times agrees Peter Jackson was special in the 1880's and 1890's, including guys like Corbett. Jackson by the way was rated higher than Johnson by Siler who saw them both. So racism from the historians or writers of the time isn't the real culprit.

I think the better explanation is the use or excuse of the color line prevented some black fighters from reaching higher acclaim by historians, and the person most guilty pre 1950 IMO is Jack Johnson by a mile. Sam Langford, Sam McVey, or Joe Jeannette's rating would sky rocket if they had a chance to meet Johnson in a title fight and defeated him.

Off topic, Jeffries has a reported KO win over Martin, and Martin was often blown out early from body or head shots. He ( Martin ) would not have lasted long really wasn't viewed as a #1 or #2 guy from 1899-1904 while Jeffries was champion.

 

Johnson is still considered a top ten lock by most boxing historians ,Jeffries is not.

How Johnson behaved is irrelevant to his standing as a boxer.

Siler ,[whom you claim did not rate Johnson highly, ]actually discovered Johnson and claimed the credit for it in his book , he brought his abilities to the attention of Jimmy Conners, saying "he is a champion in the making if ever I saw one".

Siler rated Johnson ,and Jackson on a par for skill ,but gave Jackson the nod for power.Nice to get that cleared up, [yet again!]

No one has been able to present evidence that Jeffries ever fought Martin.
Jeffries himself never claimed he did.

How long Martin would have lasted with Jeffries is beside the point, he was entitled to his chance.

Personally I think he would have lasted longer than Jack Munroe, John Finnegan ,and Joe Kennedy, and deserved a fight with Jeffries infinitely more than any of them.

As champion Jeffries turned down challenges from Johnson , Martin and McVey.
That does not mean he was not a great fighter of his times , it just means he was not prepared to risk his title against a man of colour,and he many times went into print to say so.

That was his position, nothing to do with writers, or historians.

 

Glad to be here.

I am in agreement popular concensus of the time, newspaper reports do not always tell the true story. Many fans of the sport and historians gave credit where credit was due to the greats like Johnson. If I remember reading correctly from those who knew Jeffries was he was not a fan of racism. I think it is key to remember that fighters do not dictate fights for the most part. Boxing was then and is now a business dictated by drawing power of fighters and the drama they produce in the ring that creates fan approval. Fans live vicariously through their sports heroes and that to me was the source of the racism angle when it comes to Jeffries legacy "the Great White Hope". But as a man and a fighter it is said Jeffries like Dempsey wanted to fight any man who deserved a shot but was prevented by matchmakers, money and the political climate.

 

Champions especially heavyweight champions not only dictated who they should fight ,they

dictated who should fight for their title when they retired!

Corbett chose Maher and O Donnell to contest his title once he retired .

Jeffries put his name to the nomination of Jack Root and Marvin Hart as the title challengers for his vacant title, and gave it credibility by refereeing it.

No one prevented champion Jeffries from fighting Johnson, several national papers vehemently stated he should do so.
His biggest purse by far ,a record at the time, was his inter- racial challenge to Johnson.
He only made that challenge because Johnson held the title, if the situation had been reversed Johnson would never have got his title shot,as it was he was 30 years old before he finally cornered Tommy Burns.
Jeffries flat out would not defend against a black man.
In that he was no worse than many others of his time, how many blacks did Ruhlin ,and Sharkey fight?
Corbett would not get back into a ring with Peter Jackson once he held the title.
Jeffries would not risk the title against a black man ,that is the difference and America tacitly went along with it.

 

If I remember right there was no call for a Johnson match in 1905 when Jeffries retired but the story goes that Jeffries, Johnson challenged Jeffries in front of people in a bar him and Jeff told him that there was no money in a prize fight with him but that he would fight him in the cellar of the bar and the one who comes up with the key was the winner Johnson refused and walked away.

Political pressure dictates this stuff when Johnson became champ, the public clamored for a great white hope to rescue the title.

It almost sounds like from your post that a fighter tells the management, promoters and investors who he will fight?.

 

I think that a heavyweight champ sponsoring a fight is not the same as dictating it especially when he is told to do so. I don't think boxing was any less corrupt then as it is today. Proof then were the great fighters who never fought for titles.

 

It is interesting that a lot of people who criticised Jeffries for not fighting Johnson, still favoured Jeffries to beat him. Jeffries arguably had a greater aura of invincibility around him than any other champion, during his own time.

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Hank Griffin wasn't better than Ed Martin. Hart and Johnson were Jeff's top challengers in 1904-5 but I don't necessarily feel he had to fight them, he had retired, his prerogative, it's not like he remained champ and kept avoiding them. Jeffries went on record as saying(honest if nothing else) that he wouldn't risk his title against a black man.

 

Look at it this way. If he could ever have beaten prime or pre prime Johnson, then he made a monumental mistake by not taking the fight then.