James J Jeffries versus Jack Dempsey prime for prime

I'd have to read up on Pollacks book again.Their comparable results suggest Fitz was the harder puncher,imo.

 

I don't think stoppages can be directly read as punching power.

 

Jeffries fought Fitz in July of 1902. Johnson was not yet a contender at all, fighting on less than even terms through several fights with Hank Griffin. Johnson began his move up in October of 1902 when he beat Frank Childs and George Gardner. Johnson was certainly not a contender who should have gotten a shot before Fitz in the summer of 1902.

Martin was on a winning streak, but his big win over Sandy Ferguson was in June of 1902, long after Fitz and Jeff had signed to fight, and his win over Bob Armstrong came in July of 1902. Both were in London. While he was a contender, I think it a big stretch to try and maintain he should have gotten the shot ahead of Fitz. He wasn't even in the country at a time travel was slow.

Anyway, this is total revisionism. Name a contemporary source who didn't think Fitz should have gotten that title shot. I don't think you can.

As for the wait from 1900 to 1902, that was partly due to the boxing law in New York expiring, so boxing was again illegal there. Also, if I remember Adam Pollack's take correctly, the reason for the wait was that Fitz wanted to go on tour to make money following his wins over Ruhlin and Sharkey and was in no hurry to fight Jeffries. When he had milked his exhibition tour dry, he signed for the fight. Rather than waiting, Jeff defended against the next logical contender, Ruhlin. Jeff also had unfinished business with Ruhlin, as the two had fought a draw in 1897.

Personally, I don't think criticisms of Jeff's defenses are valid until he began ducking Johnson after the Corbett rematch.

 

I'd agree there is a margin for interpretation,but Fitz kod Sharkey twice in short time and beat the **** out of Ruhlin Jeffries never did that to either.

 

Your position is that you can be retired for 2 years and still retain your status?
We will have to disagree. After koing Sharkey Fitz leaned over the ropes and publicly asked Jeffries if he would give him a fight asking him to shake on it.Does that sound to you like a fighter who is reluctant to fight for the heavyweight title? I don't let Jeffries off the hook for that.

 

Too much common sense, you have to have an agenda here!

 

Fitz issued that challenge when Jeff was injured and not in training.

When Jeff was healed in a couple of months, Fitz claimed to be retired. I will let Adam Pollack explain the relationship between the two in the fall of 1900:

"The National Police Gazette, always wanting battles to take place, began urging Jeffries to schedule a title defense. Billy Madden, Gus Ruhlin's manager, posted a $1000 forfeit for a fight with Jeffries, noting that tradition dictated that a champion must defend his title within six months of a challenge and posting of a forfeit."

"Bill Brady, still hopeful that Fitzsimmons would agree to fight Jeff after all, said that he would give Bob until December 1 to accept Jeff's challenge. Brady declared that Jeff's arm was back in shape and well enough again to stand vigorous training. Fitzsimmons responded by saying that Jeff and his manager could not use him for advertising purposes. Bob still claimed to be retired."

Adam Pollack, In the Ring with James J. Jeffries, page 450.

Jeffries made this public statement in the Police Gazette on November 3, 1900:

After complaining about splitting the purse equally with Corbett, although Jeff was champion, he says, "If Fitz will only agree to fight I will make an exception in his case and box him on terms of 75 per cent to the winner."

"If Fitz continues to refuse my offer than it is open to Gus Ruhlin, who I think is the next man entitled to a fight with me. Ruhlin beat Sharkey in as decisive a manner as ever a man was beaten, and he has a draw with me, too."

In the Ring with James J. Jeffries, page 451

Adam Pollack has done a ton of research, so I accept his take. If you have evidence that he is wrong, present it.

"you can be retired for 2 years and still retain your status?"

Louis did against Charles and Ali against Holmes. What about Jeff against Johnson? Or Ray Leonard against Hagler?

 

But Louis was not the champ when he fought Charles, nor was Ali champ when he took on Holmes.

 

Never thought JT has an agenda,neither does he snipe from the sidelines.

 

He issued the challenge in the ring directly after koing Sharkey.
"You'll give me a fight now won't you Jim ? Get up and shake on it"
Jeffries,after some hesitation did so.The Fighting Black Smith .Gilbert Odd.

Fitzsimmons walked over to "Jeffries at ringside and said,Get up Jeff and shake hands" Pollack page425 JimJeffries .

The National Press Fitzsimmons stands today as the only rival to Jeffries ,there is no other pugilist in his class page426
"When asked what his future plans were,Fitzsimmons said ," " I am going to take a rest,I think I need one ,I have engaged already in two battles inside two weeks,I am not as young as I used to be ,but I am as strong as I was when I was 21 years old,I took care of myself and that is the secret of my success."
He whipped me once,but I don't think he will do it again.When we met I had not fought in a couple of years and naturally I was not in the best of condition.
But I am in great form now and really think if we were to meet again soon I would come out on top.In fact I held Jeffries too cheap.I learned a lesson and will not be caught napping the next time.If they give me enough money I guess I will be ready to fight Jeffries some time in the next six months."page 428



Have you read
In The Ring With Bob Fitzsimons by Pollack?
Your other questions are easily answered.
Louis put up a dismal fight against Charles.
Ali did against Holmes and Jeffries did against Johnson.None of that three deserved title shots and their performances emphatically proved it!
Jeffries made lots of public statements including that he was the victim of drugged tea against Johnson should I believe that too?

 

Yes, but Leonard beat Hagler, didn't he.

What point are you trying to make? Yes, they shook hands. And Jeff said time and again, as did his manager, that he was quite willing to fight Fitz once his arm healed, which it did within a couple of months. Rather than putting Fitz down, Jeff said of him:

"He is the best man of all of them that I have met. I like Fitz and I'm perfectly willing to fight him within six months before any club in this country."

In the Ring with James J. Jeffries, page 428

As for Fitz's challenge from the ring, which you want to make so much of, Adam writes:

"Bob's hands were tender. His knuckles were a little swollen and bruised. He did not remove his hand bandages until the following day. He had a couple of body bruises, a tiny scratch under the right eye, and a little abrasion on the inner lip. Bob also claimed that he had hurt his right arm in the fight. Therefore, it made sense to wait the six months Jeff wanted."

"Still, Fitzsimmons issued conflicting statements. In one interview, Bob said, 'I'm not yet ready to say what I'll do in regard to a fight with Jeffries.' However, Fitz was also quoted as saying, 'I stand ready to meet Jeffries before September 1, but he does not seem to want any of my game.' This sounded like promotional talk rather than a genuine desire to fight again in a week."

In the Ring with James J. Jeffries, page 428

Your quotes and the quotes above are from a couple of months before when Brady was offering Fitz a title shot. I find this somewhat of a moot point to begin with, as Jeff had already fought and decisively KO'd Fitz. I find Adam's take on why the second fight was delayed convincing. Fitz demanding that Jeff jump into the ring for a title defense while hurt and not in training was promotional grandstanding. The ultimate delay was more his doing than Jeff's.

As for whether Fitz could have done better in 1901, who knows? He had already been badly beaten by Jeff and wasn't getting any younger.

As for Fitz being the best contender, everyone thought so, including Jeff, so why should Jeffries have fought Martin in 1902? The fight people wanted to see was the Jeff-Fitz rematch.

 

Louis and Ali did retire as Champ though. Jeffries too prior to fighting Johnson 5 years later.

Louis got a cold comeback shot at the title 15 months later - Ali got his after 2 and a bit years retirement.

The contention is that Fitz’s status as the top challenger was maintained despite 2 years prior inactivity.

But then, Fitz’s 1902 shot might’ve been seen as a justified/must rematch also, albeit well delayed.

Say if Ali retired upon the Spinks loss (which Fitz didn’t do anyway after losing to Jeff) but then requested a cold shot at Spinks 2 years later. Pretty sure it would’ve been granted.

After losing the title 1899, Fitz didn’t rely on an “obligatory” rematch granted in spirit, - Fitz actually fought his way back and/or reinforced his status as # 1 challenger as at 1900.

Though I’m sure Fitz felt he needed the activity anyway given his 2 year inactivity prior to his defence against Jeffries.

I don’t think there is a later day example perfectly analogous to the whys and wherefore behind Fitz’s shot at Jeff in 1902.

Also, as country miles are to city miles, so too are old timer years to mod. years.

The periods of inactivity enjoyed by some of the HW Champs back then were unreal, 2-3 years not good but not unheard of.

Finally, were any eligible challenger’s otherwise necessarily gazumped? As far as Fitz goes, I don’t think so.

Johnson was nearing outstanding # 1 but wast quite there I don’t think - interestingly though, he did KO Jeffries brother in that same year - though Jack “Charles” Jeffries wasn’t all that good - just riding on the family name.

 

I think 70sFan was paying Jason T a compliment.

 

Just a pointless musing:-

It seems more and more members are in possession of partial or complete libraries of Adam Pollack’s book(s) of spells for magically incisive discourse on Old Timers.

And that’s a good thing.

I don’t have the full set - so I’ve yet to gain Master Magician status. Arm yourselves up, fellow sorcerers.

 

I'm only missing the Burns edition. There really is no competition for what they provide.