James J Jeffries vs Jack Johnson primes

You don't think Jeffries was taken near his limit when he was behind after 22 rds with Corbett in their first fight?
In between the 18th and 19th rds his manager climbed into the ring threw Tommy Ryan,Jeff's cornerman out and told Jeffries he had to go for the ko or he would lose his title. Personally I dont think Jeffries had anywhere near the boxing ability of Johnson he had his nose broken 3 times had a cauliflower ear and cliffs of scar tissue over his eyes when he retired yet he only had 22fights ,he relied on his size durability and strength !
Johnson finished his 75 fights over more than 30 years unmarked,how come?

 

Probably would look like the jeffries fitzimmons fight. Jeff would get outboxed until he finally catches Johnson and drops him. Johnson even admitted jeffries was the greatest fighter of all time, and jack wasn't a humble man! Lol

 

He hadn't taken the fight seriously and came in out of shape, and he still wore Corbett down and won, and doesn't seem to have been in a bad state in the fight.

Jack Johnson was also KOed in 3 by a shot version of the Choyenski Jeffries (at a similar stage in his career) went 20 rounds with. Jack Johnson also was getting beaten by Hank Griffin early in his career, while Jeffries KOed him.

I'm not sure why you are talking about how marked up they are, I said Johnson was the more developed fighter, in part thanks to Choyenski who didn't seem to have too much trouble catching him, but Johnson did improve and developed, Jeffries got by on raw talent.

By your logic would someone like Stanley Ketchel not be talented?

 

He was 27 years old when he fought Hart. He had over fifty professional fights .. he was 190 pounds or so .. He was in his prime. The Burns comparison is irrelevant as it is one of styles. Hart was bigger, heavier and a swarmer .. Burns was not .

 

Fitz was 39 years old when after outboxing and outhitting Jeffries for7 rds he dropped his hands in the 8th,[they were smashed to uselessness,]and Jeffries took him out.Fitz was around 30lbs lighter than Johnson and had been retired for 2 years.Jeffries sustained a broken nose and deep cuts over and under both eyes,contemporary fight reports stated if they had been the same age,[there was a 12 years disparity]and weight,[ Fitz was 172lbs Jeffries 219lbs ,47lbs differential] Fitz would have won.
Hype Igoe who was ringside said Jeffries received more punishment than Willard did against Dempsey.
"Taking a licking and keeping on ticking," may work against inactive, coming out of retirement, older, smaller men but it is a very risky strategy to employ against a fighter who can hold his own with you physically, hits hard and is active and in his prime.

Johnson stated his best weight and condition was for the Jeffries fight for which he weighed 205lbs that is 33 lbs more than Fitz weighed and of course Johnson would be in his prime.
Can you produce the quote underlined because I have 5 books on Johnson and he always picks Fitzsimmons as the best heavyweight champion outside of himself.
I do think it would have been a hell of a fight but if a coming out of retirement Corbett could outbox Jeffries for 22 rds then Johnson who was better than Corbett in every department, size ,power ,skill, would beat him. Jeffries fought out of a crouch the antidote for a croucher is the uppercut.Johnson's best punch was the uppercut.

 

I don't think he peaked at 30, he was finally given a title fight at thirty .. he certainly did not peak at 32 - 34 .. no way , no one does, not with the number of fights he had .. Johnson was 192 vs Burns .. that was his best weight. The extra pounds against Jeffries and after , even against Ketchel was a smoother, aging body .. I'm not sure what he weighed vs Hart but will circle back .. I think in the high 180's or so ..

 

Check that .. just did .. Both Johnson and Hart were about 195 for their fight. If you think he was in his prime vs Flynn 2 and Jim Johnson I think you're way off .. in 1905 Johnson was 27 years old, had over fifty fights, had already defeated the best men he ever would and still could not decisively defeat Marvin Hart in a huge fight for him at the time, one that was a showcase for making the argument against a title fight much more difficult, one that he had ample time and resources to prepare for. These are the facts. I"m a huge Johnson fan but it is what it it .. If he could not keep Hart off him a prime Jeffries, the man who destroyed Ruhlin in their rematch and blew through Monroe might very well have beaten him straight up prime for prime in a 1905 or 06 mach up .. Jeffries destroyed his own legacy with how he conducted himself with the color line, his arrogance and his disastrous Reno comeback.

 

Burns was 5'7" tall and 168 pounds. Some say not 100% for the fight with Johnson either. Too small, but he had better skills than Hart, which is a reason why he beat Hart.

I ask for objective reasons and acknowledgment of points.

Johnson did not fight in 1911. Let's say his absolute prime was 1909. Most would agree that year was Johnson's prime. He struggled mightily in his prime this year.

1 ) Outboxed by a past Jack O'Brien according to primary sources. O'Brien's footwork and jab were things Johnson could not solve in six rounds. O'Brien about 160 pounds for this match.

2 ) Hurt by Ross, a man who won but 1 of his six last fights, by the only hard punch Ross landed. Yes-- It's true.

3 ) Floored by 5'9" Kitchel. Johnson was on quote; his jaw never hurt so bad. Ketchel was cruse and clumsy, yet he marked Johnson up with a visible mark despite hardly landing much.

4 ) If you count exhibitions matches, Johnson was noted silly in a 4 round affair by Gunboat Smith, down and dazed.

Regarding Hart vs. Johnson, Hart won it. His aggression and punching had Johnson on defense, and he wasn't a small guy standing there to be clinched.

Adam's book backs that up that Hart won it. The match was billed as an elimination match for Jeffries. Some not so well known points are after blasting out Munroe ( A fighter Johnson took the distance with Munroe being out of shape ), Jeffries did say to the press that Jack Johnson was being considered among his next opponents.

Suppose defeated Hart via KO, and there was a Reno like purse ( $100,000.00 ) for Jeffries to fight Johnson next. IMO, Jeffries would have stopped Jack Johnson in 1905, and based on Johnson's results in 1909, if Jeffries was in his prime, he takes him out there too.

 

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I say he was in the end of his prime in 1908 when he fought Burns. He would never be that focused and fit again. His body tells the story .. he was 192 and ripped. Even against Jeffries in 1910 at age 32 , the only other fight after Burns that he took seriously, he was twenty pounds heavier and while in shape no where near the same ..

After Johnson won the title he dealt with so much blowback and hatred he started drinking heavily and lost focus .. he wanted easy money and some recognition and got neither .. all the build up was to a Jeffries fight and the money it would generate .. he slept walked thru 1909 barely taking the fights seriously .. his last great performance was Jeffries in 1910 at age 32 himself .. with all that went on in his life it is amazing that he was never killed by a crowd at one of his fights let alone that he held it together at all ...

 

Jeffries gets serious hate on this forum. Personally I think he was a beast. A top 15 guy. But Johnson deals with him. I'm a massive Jonson fan, too. He deals with most. Johnson on points.