James J Jeffries vs Jack Johnson primes

What you are saying is plausible, but it is also possible that he was faster when he fought Hart, and therefore better.

Without more and better footage, I would be reluctant to commit on exactly when Johnson was at his best.

 

The problem with this contention is that his list of victims and performances between 1908 and 1912 are not exactly awe-inspiring. If a 170 pound runt is your best pelt at heavyweight, it leaves the door open to the possibility that Jeffries could do quite well.

 

That's a given but this whole forum is about probability and best guesstimates .. from the footage we have he was sharper and fitter against the faster Burns in 1908 than he was against Flynn, Moran and Willard .. other than possibly Lennox Lewis is is very hard to make any argument that a heavyweight was better physically at age 32 or 34 than 27. I'll go with the line of reasoning.

 

The Hart issue is complicated by the fact that we have no film of Hart, and don't have a detailed understanding of his style.

He was clearly a swarmer of some sort, but we don't know how polished he was, or how relentlessly he applied pressure.

If he was good, then we could argue that he was simply a stylistic foil for Johnson, like Ken Norton was for Ali, and that would tie up a lot of loose ends.

If he was not so good then we must conclude, either that there was a serious lapse on Johnson's part, or that Johnson fairly beatable for somebody like Jeffries.

 

Q,

My comments:


Jeffries - old, out of the ring for 6 years, competitive until about round 10...watch the films

Langford - 20 years old, 156 pounds according to Clay who wrote the book on Langford.

Fitzsimmons - Very old and injured!

Jeanette - A novice. Sometimes had a losing record, .500, yet at times competitive!

McVey - A teenager when he meet Johnson!

Burns - 5'7" 168 pounds. Likely his best pure win, best filmed performance.

Ketchel - 5'9" Middle, floored Johnson

Ed Martin - Maybe his 2nd best win, easy to KO to the head or body

Childs - A middle weight type


If you want the straight dope, I did a thread on some of Johnson's less than well known fights, he had more issues than you think.

As Champion ( 1909-1914 ) Johnson did not fight the best 3-4 out there. A win over McVey, Langford, Jeannette, or say Smith would have been his best win, or 2nd best win.

I agree with you Dempsey, but at least he smashed his guys in his prime, for the most part.

 

I guess I'm right in saying Dempsey isn't in your top 10 list either

 

I would consider Sam Peter completely dominating Vitali Klitshcko, who was out of the ring for 4 years, as an elite victory. Different eras, different styles, different fighters, but for me that should put things into perspective. People shouldn't be so quick to overlook Johnson's win over Jeffries. Quite frankly it's disrespectful to both fighters to do so.

 

I didn't ask for it but thanks No doubt you would've put a hell of a lot of thought into it over the years!

 

In primes for me it's a toss up that's how good both were....maybe slight edge for Jeff in 25 and over...thanks

 

You can make this argument but what do you base it on ? The Burns fight came after years of chasing Hart for a rematch and then Burns. It was not bestowed on him based on reaching a prime. He fought and defeated his toughest opposition by the Hart fight. You think Johnson was in his prime vs Ketchel and O’Brien ? Again, he was 27, had over fifty fights and weighed 195 for Hart. Tough argument your trying to make based on “you think” ..