james j jeffries

Machen tended to fight defensively. He was a counter puncher, skilled with covering up, and good on defense. I agree Machen was pretty quick too, but not super elusive or fleet footed. Eddie often had the ropes to his back in this fight, and other fights.

Liston was not pressed in this fight. Eddie was often had the ropes to his back. What we can see is Liston did not like to be hit, and went dirty un-purpose when Machen was frustrating him.

My point is Liston only went 12 once, and it was not a hard fight. In this fight he fouled multiple times, and nearly lost his cool. These are my points, and they are in a reply to McVey issuing a trial balloon that Liston could go 20-25 rounds.

If we look at the one of the Williams fights, Williams won round one big time, and busted Liston's nose. Of Course Williams had the chin of a place kicker. In a stand and trade fight, it was only a matter of time before Liston caught up to him.

 

Ok, in saying never tested in a hard fight, lets say he was never tested in a give and take fight vs a guy who can punch over many rounds.

Do you agree with me that Liston fouled, and clearly was frustrated in this fight?

Liston, despite being a puncher had a tendency to let journeyman go 10 with him. See the Whitehurst fights ( on film ), and the Marshall fights.

 

good post but just because liston didn't doesn't mean he couldn't. if that's the case, ALL modern fighters lose to old timers because they haven't had the opportunity to fight 25 rounds and thus, may not be able to. were the old timers that much tougher? were they blessed with inhuman stamina or were there outdated training methods more effective?

i think the prime liston, who was avoided for years, could very well have fought 25 foughts and his ridiculous reach and jab would have been a hugh advantage not just against the smaller jeffries but against the style in which he fought. with his low crouch i don't see him consistently getting past that piston like jab. liston would tag him low all night

 

That's part of the reason, but I hasten to point out that Johnson WAS really hammering him with some heavy punches. Could he have finished him off sooner? Probably. But the fact remains that Jeff absorbed some hard punches.
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Because he had a very slow, methodical style where he broke you down by inches.

Wouldn't that more or less be what I'm alluding to? If a heavyweight of his size has serious trouble with middleweights, what does it say about his abilities (athletic and otherwise)? Or about the abilities of the other superheavies of his era?

Indeed. If so, that would tend to support the idea that Jeffries wasn't a superheavyweight of Liston's athletic caliber, wouldn't it?

Always possible if he was fighting under modern rules.

What about the Choynski fight?

The guy hammered Jeffries and knocked out Johnson.

He did pretty well in shrugging off the clinches in the Williams fight as well.

I would disagree--though a lot of this comes down to subjective viewing of the film. I see Jeffries as a relatively quick-footed stalker who darts in (usually with his left) and then uses his wrestling technique on the inside to maul the opponent until the guy either escapes or the ref breaks the clinch up. Jeffries was noted as hard to hit in that crouch--not quite the face-first slugger we think of him as (Marciano often has the same credibility problem).

 

Jeffries and Liston were roughly the same size (Jeffries was shorter, but broader, and heavier--if anything, slightly larger than Sonny).

 

good point; they were roughly the same size but liston's reach was enormous and he knew how to use it to great effect

 

True. Despite their similar heights, Liston is the significantly "taller" fighter in this bout.

 

This is somewhat off-topic. But, do you know of any actual arm length measures, as opposed to wingspan, that exist for these fighters ? It seems a better measure than reach. I know Sonny had very long arms, but I wonder how accurate many of these measures really are.

 

I would add to this that Jeffries was a lot faster both in terms of hands and feet.

 

First excellent post!
I should first say I don't have a problem with anyone picking Jeffries.
The guy was a physical marvel and indestructible against his then opposition.
COULD HE WHEATHER THAT JAB,AND THE FOLLOW UP SHOTS FOR .15 rds?
MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP.

 

Why could Liston not go 25 rds?
Jeffries only did it once,against a cruiserweight.

Did The ANVIL FALL,so fighters after a given period were NO LONGER CAPABLE OF LASTING THIS DISTANCE?
I thought it was a given that training techniques had become more sophisticated over the years?
What have I missed ?