james j jeffries

The main point I got fro it wasn't whether Sonny could physically last that long; it was whether he had the mental strength to win in a drawn-out war that was essentially a marathon in terms of what he was used to.

It's a valid concern. Conversely, who's to say Jeffries isn't a better fighter if he only trains for 15 round fights because conditioning becomes a little less urgent a factor?

 

I think these are valid points, did Liston have the mental toughness to overcome the adversities that Jeffries had to surmount?
Maybe it boils down to your personal interpretation of his two fights with Ali?

 

And you base that on what?

 

I'm sure that will come in to play. Personally, I don't feel I know enough about either to make a halfway decent opinion on it- so I suppose I'll just say each man wins in their respective eras.

 

It seems a bit rich to criticise Jeffries for fighting smaller opponents, when Liston lost to the only light heavyweight that he ever faced. In fact, liston has lost to more small fighters than Jeffries ever has. He was also knocked out and dominated by Clay (understandable) but clay, while being a heavyweight, does have the faster style of a lighter fighter. People wont like the idea, but there are no guarantees whatsoever that Liston would have come out on top of the opposition that Jeffries beat.

Even the Fitz fight, who you would think is way too small for Liston is not a certain win for Liston. IN fact, if Liston suffers the same shots and punishment that Jeffries did, it is certain that he will lose, unless he shows a lot more heart than what he did in both the Ali fights. The other certainty from such a fight is that Liston would need to land a lot more and cleaner than what he did on the only light heavyweight he ever fought, or he doesnt KO Fitz.

Similar plausible scenarios can also be made for Corbett, Sharkey and others.

At first glance, i think that Liston is a very bad stylistic matchup for Jeffries, and my inkling is that it is a war which could go either way. But, looking further into his record, there does seem to be some mileage in the idea that Liston struggles after he taken throught the first 5 or 6 rounds. Considering that this is Jeffries strong point, it is definitely a valid consideration. You would have to think that Jeffries finishes much stronger, particularly if the rounds are increased to say 20 rounds.

As a bit of a side issue, it is rarely really mentioned when considering Liston, but how much did the loss of 2 years due to jail hurt his career? He seemed to improve when coming out of jail, but is that really possible? No fighter has ever benefited from such a break. How good would Liston have been if he didnt go to jail and simply continued to fight and improve instead.

 

LOOK! I like Ol' Jeff, but let's remain sane here......... Sure he was a fast runner in a dash, but I never saw or read anything that stated he was a speed demon of a boxer........ Jeff stuck and moved a tad, but he was a plodder who crept forward searching for openings on his victim....... He was no flashy boxer with finessing grace.... Jeff was a big man by early 20th century standards who owned power...... I'd have loved to have been able to talk and discuss boxing with Jeff..........

MR.BILL

 

Jeffries was prettyquick-footed against Ruhlin--at least when it came to closing distance. Admittedly, it's hard to tell on the old film.

Of the opponents Jeffries faced (and assuming that he was in fact a legitimate athletic superheavy and his trouble with middleweights reflected the rules and small gloves rather than a lack of talent), I'd pick Choynski to give at least as much trouble to a young Liston as he did to a young Jeffries. A green Liston might also struggle against Fitzsimmons, who actually isn't all that much shorter than Sonny despite being a LOT lighter. Sharkey would probably get blasted out by a prime Liston, along with Ruhlin.

An old Corbett would give Liston a lot of trouble under turn-of-the-century rules. Corbett in his prime would stand a very good chance at defeating him outright (though Jeff never faced a prime Corbett either).

I would expect Liston's wins against Jeffries' opposition to look more impressive than Jeffries' wins, by and large. They simply weren't strong enough or heavy enough punchers to exploit the rules against Liston like Jeffries himself would.

 

i remember what you said about the old-time techniques of training.
so maybe it explains the weird claim about a superheavy (heavy)
being weight drained. but if so , was not johnson expected to be weight drained also ?
i think it was written (possibly i'm wrong) that one of the reasons for the de-hydration was to harden the body , but jeffries himself exclaimed his crouch for being vulnerable to the body.
maybe he wasn't that much dehydrated in his fights ?

jeffries is listed 6'2" and liston 6'0.5" , so why jeffries shorter ?

 

Liston, would have destroyed Jefferies inside 12 rounds. 2-0 Lsiton

 

No criticism is intended, at his peak Jeffries fought what was available[with the exception of Johnson],it was not his fault he was bigger and younger than most of his challengers.Though I do feel he could have rematched Corbett and Fitz earlier than the three years it took him to get around to it.
It may be that Jeffries would be the stronger over the long haul, his record certainly suggests it.
Its also entirely possible the fight would not go that long,Liston's pole of a jab may mark Jeffries up enough for him to score a tko.
The time Liston spent in prison is a valid point ,did he lose prime years there? Probably.
I dont see a 167lbs Fitz lasting long with Liston,neither do I think Corbett would go 23rds with him, before being caught with something heavy and demolished.
Liston did not need rounds of attrition to wear down opponents he could end it early.
Muhammad Ali at 6 ' 3'' and 212lbs would crucify Jeffries imo.
likewise Fitz and Corbett . They would fare no better than the untrained complacent aging boozer Liston did.imo.
Do you think a 5' 9'' Sharkey coming forward all night ,would go 45rds with Liston , finish both fights on his feet, making both contests life and death?

 

Do i think a 5 9 Sharkey coming forward all night would last the distance with Liston, definetly not. Then again, Do I think that the same sharkey would have lasted the distance again with Jeffries, definitely not. I notice that Johnny Summerlin twice went the distance with Liston. According to boxrec, one of those times, he hurt his nose even before the fight. There is no changing this. Still, I doubt that he would do it a third time. Marty Marshall also twice went the distance with Liston, actually beating him one of those times. Not Surprisingly, Liston KOd him in their third encounter. I think Jeffries would KO him also. ONe thing is for certain, Neither Marshall or Summerlin were rated as highly as Sharkey was (in his own time). I think too much is made by a lot of people of the Sharkey fights going the distance. Nobody, not liston, Ali, Louis, Dempsey, marciano or anyone else KOs every single decent fighter they meet. Jeffries did win both Sharkey fights. You cant do much more.

 

I think you are under selling a known given point, and reaching to make your own. Jeffries didn't go 25 vs. a mere cruiser weight.

He did it vs a hall of fame fighter, with a injured arm, and under white hot lights. In addition, Jeffries went 23 vs. Corbett ( which is over double the amount Liston ever went ) , and 20 with another hall of fame fighter.

Training techniques are one thing, but the will to fight through adversity is completely different.

 

this is the point i am coming around to buying into. i honestly believe liston COULD got 25 rounds if he needed to train for it, but WOULD he? he had the mike tyson mentally: i'm the best if I can't dominate, i'm taking my ball and going home. reading all the posts, and a little more on jeffries, i think that one of two scenarios emerge:

Unlikely-Liston establishes his jab early and keeps Jeffries at range, pounding away and never letting Jim, always in a crouch, get close enough to do damage

Likely-Jeffries uses his vastly superior physical strength to bull his way in and attacks Liston with short, powerful punches to the head and body. By the 3rd it's turned into a war and Liston can't get him off. Liston still has wicked sting in his punches but he is not used to someone being stronger, maintaining a consistent attack, fighting constantly close and importantly, fighting someone who isn't the least bit scared of him. Worn down, pissed, not so determined and frustrated the towel is thrown in for Liston in the 20th.

 

Jeffries had to eliminate around 80 pounds of fat--a considerably greater load than Johnson. Agreed that both would have been trying to sweat weight off (although I meant "weight-drained" in a general sense--i.e. his body was exhausted after losing so much so quickly), but Jeff needed a LOT more weight loss than Johnson did. And Johnson was a younger man, which also helps.

On the heights, Jeffries' height varies according to the account. It's anywhere from 6'0" to 6'2". I think boxrec has him at 6'0" even.