james j jeffries

I won't respond to your baiting because your opinion on this subject has no value for me,,you have never demonstrated objectivity on the subject of Jeffries ,and therefore forgo any meaningful dialogue .
Do you know what asinine means?

 

As I said earlier, it's difficult to tell because of the poor quality of the film and weird speed, but it seems that Jeffries is pretty fast afoot in short bursts when he tracks Ruhlin down.

Again, we have very minimal footage to work from, but watching Jeffries swing his ~200 lb. brother around is pretty impressive strength-wise. He backs Ruhlin up pretty easily too.

Like I said, I also consider the punches he absorbed against Johnson to be a testament to his chin against a prime, 200+ pound puncher. The guy had no defense left and still took some pretty solid punches. And remember that Jeffries was absorbing those punches from 4-6 oz. gloves.

 

Even though it isn't mentioned, I suspect that Jeffries would know how to do it; there are a lot of little tricks that never get into the manuals from that period, and it's my suspicion that most of the "dirty boxing" used in modern MMA would be familiar to Jeffries & co.

 

I dont doubt he would know how to do it ,but I never read any account of a fight in which he did, in fact I NEVER read any account that he used his wrestling ability to any noticeable extent.
You twice mentioned the fact that Jeffries weathered Johnsons punches for a considerable time.
Johnson carried Jeffries for some rounds imo,and that is the opinion of many writers who were ringside,plus I never thought of Johnson as an especially hard puncher.I beleive Johnson could have taken Jeffries out earlier had he applied himself to the task,of course a prime Jeffries would have been a totally different story.

 

McVey,

I was just wondering, have you ever seen the full Johnson vs Jeffries fight (i havent). I have never seen any more than clips online. Reports of the fight generally are in agreement with what you suggest, but then again, other reports suggest a closer fight for a while (not sure if this is mostly the Mendoze reports or not though). Of all the historical fights, this one would be great to get youtubed.

I find it hard to believe that Johnson would carry Jeffries, thus taking the risk that a biased judge would save the champ by shortening the fight and rendering a decision, or even take the risk that Jeffries would find something special, like he did to Corbett and Fitzsimmons. I think it is more likely that Johnson simply fought cautious. Some of the clips that i saw (and i am sure you have seen them to) show that Jeffries, even though he was getting beaten was still always coming forward and trying to land his Jab and left hook. I just find it hard to believe that Johnson would gamble his entire future (future earnings, title etc) by prolonging the fight unnecessarilly.

I also think that most people underestimate Johnson's power. When he unloaded, he had plenty. And if nothing else, he certainly did unload plenty on Jeffries, by the end of the fight. I cant see many if any copping the punishment that Jeffries copped for such a prolonged period. Certainly there was no holding jeffries up, like what is alleged in the ketchell fight.

 

I tend to doubt that Johnson carried Jeffries since he was not likley to get any favours from the judge (Rickard) if it went the distance or if he got fouled or was subject to some other misdemeanour.

I suggest that he did not go hell for leather because that was not his natural or optimum style but that he was looking to close the fight as promptly as he could without taking undue risks.

Once Jeffries was in trouble he was certainly looking to close the deal promptly.

 

I have seen what footage is available including restored and improved prints.
The first three rounds were generally conceded to Jeffries because he was the aggressor ,though a cautious one.Johnson did little.
In the fourth Jeffries upped his pace and bundled Johnson into the ropes landing on his nose,Johnson was seen to have blood on his face,but this was actually an old training injury,[a cut lip] that had been reopened.
In the fifth round Johnson cut loose a bit,he cut Jeffries on the mouth and under the eye, both men landed some good shots.Johnson's round
The sixth round saw Johnson bang a terrific left to Jeffries face, which immediately began to close his right eye.Johnson now began to taunt and laugh at Jeffries ,feeling in control of the fight.Johnson's round
The seventh round was again Johnson's , Jeffries managed to land one stiff left to Johnson's chin ,but Johnson smiled at him and roared with laughter ,before retaliating with two hard left leads to Jeffries closed eye.
Jeffries ,showing the courage he was famous for, made a big drive in the eighth ,and managed to land a couple of hard lefts to Johnson's body,but the Champion grinned at him and showed his impeccable defence .Johnson was adjudged to have taken this round but not by a very big margin.
The ninth saw Johnson talking to ringsiders nonchalantly , laughing loudly on one occasion.Jeffries eye was bleeding badly now.Johnson's round

The tenth saw Johnson busier , but landing light punches not commiting himself.,at the end of the round Johnson winked at several friends ringside.Johnson's round.

The eleventh saw Johnson bring his uppercut out of its scabbard, three quick uppercuts had Jeffries faltering,as well as bleeding heavily from the nose and mouth.Johnson's round.

Twelth round,Johnson now takes the brakes off,he punishes Jeffries in the clinches,with short shorts,Jeffries is impotent as far as ofence is concerned,he stoically takes his punishment.Johnson's round

The thirteenth ,Jeffries is wobbly on his feet and allmost blind, the fight should have been over by now,but Rickard lets it continue,[ he stated later it had to be a clear cut victory because of the racial overtones]Johnson's round.
The fourteenth was like the five rounds before it ,not competitive.
Johnson hit Jeffries whenever he felt like it,and he began
to really unload on him thrashing the brave Jeffries badly, sections of the crowd had been calling for a stoppage for two rounds ,now their voices increased in volume.
The fifteenth was mercifully the last round, an idol had crumbled.

Prefight statements by the fighters.
Jeffries "I'll lick this black man so badly that he'll never want to see a boxing ring again.

I never was so good as this before,that is to say,I never felt better.
No matter what my condition is or isn't Im going to lick Johnson.
I don't care whether the fight lasts four rounds or forty,it will be all the same to me.

This will be my last fight ,and it maybe Johnson's last fight too.
I've had to do a lot of training ,to put myself in shape ,and Ive had to give up a lot of pleasure,it's no fun for a man of my inclinations to have to deny himself everything,to knuckle down,and work his blamed head off,just on account of a ****.

There's something coming to somebody ,and its going to come good too.
I'll make Johnson pay for the long hard grind I've had to go through.
Now that its allover I'm glad it happened; but anyhow I want to lick somebody,and that somebody is Jack Johnson.

No I won't have any excuse to offer.I'm not going to lose,so what's the use of saying,I'll not have an excuse if I do lose"

Johnson.
"`I only wish I was as sure of getting a million dollars ,as I am that I'll whip Mr Jeffries .
he was a great fighter ,probably the greatest that ever lived,but I think I have every thing in my favour,in the coming fight.
Ive never been out of training,not very far out I mean; and I'm a much better boxer than Jeffries ever was.
I dont know how I'll fight him; I might start right after him,or I might stall him for awhile;but I'll win,that's sure.
Ive been rapped for not being aggressive.Just because the other fellow sticks his head in the fire is no reason why I should do the same.
I use my head and take no chances ,that is unnecessary ones.That's the real ring generalship,I think.
I know can land a knockout,and you'll be surprised when I do it.
I don't ever make excuses; people would laugh at me , if I should lose ,and then come around with an excuse,and I'd laugh at them if they didn't.
Don't judge me by my other fights.
I shan't know what my plan of campaign is before we are face to face in the ring.
Rather a contrast in styles wouldn't you say?

Post fight interviews.
Jeffries.

" I have not got the snap of my youth that I once had,I believed I had,but when I tried,speed and youthful stamina were lacking,and things that I used to do , I found impossible.
I guess it was my own fault,I was living peacefully on my alfalfa farm,until people called me the "White man's Hope",I guess my pride got the better of my good judgement"

Johnson.
"I won because I outclassed Jeffries in every department of the fighting game.
With the exception of reopening an old wound on my lip,I am unmarked,and in shape for another battle tomorrow.
.
For one thing I must give Jeffries credit,the game battle he fought ,none can say he did not do his best"


Interestingly Jeffries was introduced in the ring as "The World Champion".

No favouritism there then.
I wonder if it was Mendoza's great ,great grandfather doing the announcing ?

 

Look the facts are we have a ton of quality footage of Liston and his opponents and a tiny fraction of that on Jeffries. Sonny fought small and large heavyweights while Jeffries for the most part built his legend on the old and small Fitz, the old Corbett, the older Choynsky, the 185 pound Sharkey and a shot Peter Jackson.

Jeffries, likely about 6' 1/2" and 210 to 218 naturally muscular pounds, was considered a giant in his day and indestructable based on his success over the above mentioned opponents. Stories about his strength, chin, power and stamina are legend. I have always felt that right after Dempsey Jeff is the biggest question mark of heavyweight champs. Was he all he was hyped to be or more of a Chuvalo transported back to 1900 ? We really don't know and some clips of a guy hitting a bag or skipping rope just don't really answer the questions.

I think at the very least he was very strong, tough, well conditioned, smart and had a very good sock. Anything else is speculation. He really is the Paul Bunyon of the heavyweight division.

 

Your comment on Chuvalo actually cuts to the heart of the matter, in my opinion.

Take Chuvalo and transport him to 1900. Now have him learn the boxing/wrestling skillset they used in 1900, training with Roeber and (Farmer) Burns in addition to Corbett, and have him fight under 1900's rules for his entire career.

Under those circumstances, I'd pick Chuvalo to have a very good chance against Liston under turn-of-the-century rules.

 

Thanks for that report.

Would it be fair to say (based on that report) that, on scorecards if not for the fact that Johnson was coming into his own, the fight was actually relatively even until the 10th round, with Jeffries winning the first 4 rounds?

It sounds as if the performance may be reasonably similar to Ali vs Berbick where Ali did okay early on but faded as the fight wore on.

The pre fight quotes are interesting. I think it shows, through Jeffries hate of the training (not sure if he ever spoke of training like this before) that mentally he didnt really care for the fight or have the drive and hunger to succeed. Sure he wanted to win (doesnt everyone) but he didnt really want to put the effort in to get the win.

Johnsons quotes were also very, very telling. I think the fact that he refers to fighting cautiously and not changing his style pretty much confirms that he was fighting to his style rather than carrying and taunting Jeffries. And i also think thatthis was a wise move. He may have thrown caution to the wind and KOd Jeffries earlier, but he also may have ran into one and got knocked out. That was not his style and that is why he couldnt have KOd Jeffries earlier without changing his style and risking a loss.

 

People have to understand the closest thing to Johnson we have seen in many years is Hopkins. Defensive minded, calculating, very strong, chop a man down brick by brick.

 

We all agree Johnson was a cautious performer,I doubt he would be popular today,"defence allways wins in the end, if its good enough".
but I think he could have stopped Jeffries after the tenth round ,or thereabouts.Johnson style , he had drawn his sting ,and had before him a man allmost incapable of mounting an attack by then .
Johnson laughed and taunted Jeffries thoughout the fight,and kept up a running conversation with Corbett,in the early rounds ,[as his supremacy became obvious ,Corbett fell silent ], it was probably a pretty cruel thing to watch ,but Johnson was justified I think,,and Jeffries personal comments , dont cover him with glory do they?
Contrast them with Johnson's gentlemanly one before the fight and his complimentary one after.
Jeffries was a racist ,but no more than most of his race during those times.
Jack London , who had started the crusade, wrote in a post script an article headed," Jeff ,it was up to you ,you did your best ,we could ask no more".But most of white America was less sympathetic to Jeffries and felt they had been badly let down by his poor showing,the fact that it was their unrealistic demand that he emerge from 6 years of retirement and "regain the honour of the white race" seems to have escaped them.