james j jeffries

McVey,
ONe more thing, very quickly.

I have to say that that photo is one of the best photos i have ever seen. I am sure i have seen it before, but never really taken too much notice. but when you think about it, it is one photo, which, imo makes it so easy to see just how difficult modern fighters would have it, if fighting the older all time greats (Johnson in particular).

How is a modern fighter, who has very limited skills in this area, going to defend against it. I can imagine, even a Lennox lewis or Vlad klitchsko struggling with this type of tactic because they have never really seen it before. And you can see from this photo, how open they are to the famous Jack Johnson Uppercut. Speed or Reach or even power might not even help, if they arent skilled enough to free themselves from the clinch and strike and/or defend themselves immediately.

At what time did you think that this tactic started to become less important. Would i be correct in saying that it started to fade around about the Dempsey era? When Johnson retired, or do you think it lasted as long as about the Joe Louis era? Or is there some other date.

I remember the Tyson Botha fight with accusations of trying to break arms, but that doesnt really seem to be the same type of tactic we are talking here and as similar as it was seems to be a bit more of an isolated incident anyway, dont you think?

 

I would not dismiss Jeffries chances against too many Champs,especially the slower guys,I think fast moving big men would expose him somewhat, but if he was as durable as they say ,he could ship an inordinate amount of punishment ,ie" take a licking and keep on ticking".
Todays rule set would probably see him tkod ,still full of fight ,but his face chopped into hamburger.Precision punchers like Louis , fleet dancing masters like Ali,and ring mechanics like Holmes would beat him imo. Liston ,or at least the Liston who beat Williams, would get my vote over Jeffries ,because he has 1. more power, 2. more skill and 3. that pole of a jab.
Should Jeffries be able to extend Sonny, without the referees intervention, we might see the balance change dramatically as Liston starts to blow ,and Jeff begins to rumble ,but my pick is Liston.

 

Jeffries was undoubtedly VERY strong, after all he was allmost a giant in comparison to most men of his time.

He was known to be extremely capable as a wrestler, I say capable ,because I have seen some posts that aver he was world class.
Jeffries wrestled with Frank Gotch and Ernst Roeber, he obviously knew how to grapple ,BUT I NEVER READ ANYWHERE, ONE INSTANCE OF HIM USING IT IN A FIGHT.
Which is strange really because ,you would think he would have employed it against the lighter men he fought,ie Choynsky,Fitz, and Corbett.
Its unfair to state that Johnson was his master at close quarters ,because Jeffries was obviously no longer the" California Grizzly Bear", his stamina was severely depleted, and his wind , and speed were lacking without these ,strength is useless.
Prime for prime Jeffries would have given Johnson a hell of a fight,I think he would still have lost ,but it would not have been,a taunting afternoon of misery for him,thats for sure.
A champion who divided Jeffries and Johnson was Burns,he was famous for his infighting abilities,the fact that Johnson handled him like a baby , can probably be put down to the size disparity.

 

I agree with the nucleus of what you say, modern fighters ,with a few exceptions [Hopkins is a prime one], dont really fight much inside ,neither do they seek to obtain an advantage when in close, world class fighters such as Hearns for example didnt even know how to clinch when they were tagged, which is glaringly evident from the Leonard fight. Hearns like Bruno only learned to" claim" their opponents late in their careers.
Boxing today is geared primarily towards offence ,and usually to the head,when we see a fighter who utilises good defence and or goes effectively to the body ,we remark on it, the old timers did it automatically ,they had time to learn their trade , and a defeat was not the disaster it often is today.
Fighters like Lewis and Vitaly could control the distance at which they fought, Wlad is very effective at this too,though given to panic if a fighter is prepared to " take one to give one".
So they never really needed to learn to fight inside, the best big man I have seen for inside work in the last 30 years is Riddick Bowe.
The uppercut is a risky punch to throw because it leaves you open , usually to the left hook, when employed today it is often concentratraed on the body ,short uppercuts inside ,to ribs and chest area.
Holyfield was quite effective with this, Lewis too.
Tyson was another who knew how and when to throw this punch.
Joe Louis was schooled by Blackburn after his close affair with the crouching Godoy,Blackburn had Louis throwing uppercuts incessantly from both hands in the gym, as a consequence Louis ripped Godoy's face to shreds in the rematch
.Marciano practised this punch for the second Walcott fight, and whether you think Walcott could have gotten up ,or just ran out of ambition at that point, there is no denying the fluency with which the punch was delivered.
The best exponent of this punch since Johnson , would be Holmes imo.

Johnson fought Frank Moran in Paris,Johnson was out of shape,[nothing unusual there], and Moran was game and determined,if a trifle limited, Johnson continually grabbed Moran and nullified his efforts to fight at mid range, at one point Moran was clearly exasperated by the vice like grip he could not evade, he looked to Carpentier ,the referee to break them ,Carpentier duly ordered the men to break, Johnson, like a flash let go of Moran's arm and smashed home a terrific right uppercut ,breaking Moran's nose, unsporting? Of course, but this is fighting not croquet.
If your opponent has a smashed nose ,or other facial damage, a rub with the heel of the glove,or a sharp rise of the shoulder into the damaged area can be most efficacious :good

Best craftily dirty fighters might make a decent thread!
Hopkins with his blind side of the ref, holding and hitting.
Evander and Conteh with their cerebral activities.
Mike Spinks with those bony elbows .
Lewis , pulling down and punching.

I left out Tyson ,nothing crafty about his fouls.
One fight that makes me laugh is Jim Flynn,leaping up trying to butt Johnson, hilarious.
A famous" billy goat "affair was Fullmer and Giardello ,but Ive never seen it.

 

For those who boxed, the correct thing to do ( that will not get a point docked ) vs. an opponent who bending low and squeezing of the bicep is to put weight on the back of their head, and wear them down. Lennox Lewis and several other fighters know.

 

The Johnson Moran fight ,you can see Johnson is very thick in the mid riff ,a far cry from the ripped fighter , with the wash board stomach who beat Jeffries, he is carrying excess around his arse too.Jack Johnson vs. Frank Moran - Archive Print - 1914. Johnson scaled 221lbs for this fight ,as opposed to the 208 lbs he weighed for the Jeffries fight

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This is because your basing your thoughts on limited film viewings. If you see any of Jeffries vs Sharkey II, you will see some wrestling. Jeffries bulls Sharkey to the ropes as if he's on roller skates, and at one point literally picks a charging Sharkey up in the air to the point where Sharkey's waist is at Jeffries head level, then decides not to slam him and let's him down.

One can purchase 8 minutes or so of action, though be warned some of it is edited and shown in different segments.

If you saw the entire Jeffries vs. Johnson fight ( you haven't ) you won't see much bicep pinching. However at one point ( middle rounds ) Jeffries does pick Johnson up and move him to his other side.

Most of the early clinching in the fight was by Johnson, and contrary to reports when Jeffries had stamina, it was Johnson who was going backward on the flim. If a prime Jeffries was in there Johnson would have to change his game plan to win, because waiting for an old slow man to gas would not happen.

As I have said many times before, many of your points are based on books. Watch the footage, and you won't need to reply with CAPS when questioning something.

-M

 

Liston early-mid KO whatever the rule set, Jeffries is too easy to hit and doesn't have the power or speed to keep Liston unloading those brutal combinations to body and head.

 

I have seen all the footage of Jeffries extant, including a minute and a half of him sparring with his useless brother Jack.
Did you know Jeffries appeared in two shorts ?
In one of which he arm wrestles an unnamed opponent?

I have never contended that Johnson took the initiative early in their fight, quite the contrary. In the majority of Johnson's fights he padded backwards for the most part, I think he must have been rather a dreary performer at times.

The last round of the Sharkey fight has never been seen, because it was not filmed, which is a pity because we would have seen the last bareknuckle punch delivered in a boxing ring , as Jeffries glove came off,and Sharkey took advantage of it to launch an attack, and Jeffries responded with an ungloved fist.
What purports to be the last round is in fact a re-enactment of it.

Jeffries was 5 inches taller and 32 lbs heavier than Sharkey, no big deal there.
If you want an exhibition of strength view the entire fight of Louis and Carnera ,Louis at one point, picks Carnera up bodily.
Also check out Dempsey picking 216 1/2 lbs Firpo up off the ground like he is a boy.

You are less rabid in your comments tonight,is that because I was objective and complimentary towards Jeffries?
I happen to think he was a hell of a fighter, but I prefer you as your irrational ,condescending, smug,biased self. politeness and a modicum of courtesy sit very ill on your shoulders.

" Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts" .E B. WHITE.

" Omni Quod Non Intelligunt"
Do you understand Latin?

 

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Liston
and that reach.

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This picture shows it more than most: it's actually rather noteworthy how much Liston's famously long jab depended on him leaning forward (almost off balance, in fact). I've seen this in the films, but this picture emphasizes it quite well. :think

 

I think at times Liston's jab worked against him ,it was so heavy it jolted opoponents backwards,out of range for the follow up shot, of course it was busting up features and draining his opponent of ambition , but I dont beleive he often produced a ko immediately off of it.

 

What makes you think that Jeffries is easy to hit?

I have seen sparring footage where he makes his oponent miss by a few inches by pulling his head back like Muhamad Ali.

 

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This question was not asked of me ,but if you will indulge me.
ALL the favourable skills you say Jeffries possessed you gleaned from TRAINING FOOTAGE,as you have said.

Swinging his fat useless brother around in sparring and skipping ,changing direction during footwork sessions.Evading half hearted punches etc.

Champion boxers SHOULD look good against sparring partners, that they are superior in class is a given,that they are not in actual combat ,and therefore under no pressure or fear of reprisal is a given.
Im sorry but you cannot draw a definitive conclusion of a fighters capabilites from SPARRING SESSIONS.

If you could Harry Greb would be a joke.

The opinion that Jeffries was easy to hit is an overwhelming one , based on.
Contemporary writers who saw his fights
And every book written about him and his fights.
The punishment he received in many of them

Choynsky smashed his lips through his teeth.

Fitz turned his face to raw steak.
Corbett jabbed him to death.

Jeffries nose was broken three times .

Robert Davis who was ringside as a writer for the Fitz Jeffries fight, and who coincidentally popularised the term the solar plexus punch, said that Jeffries took more punishment from Fitz then Willard did from Dempsey, his face was cut to pieces, under and over both eyes,,his nose was swollen black, his cheek bones gashed open, his mouth like a piece of liver.
Sports writer Hype Igoe confirms this and said he was astounded that
1. The fight was allowed to continue and
2 . Jeffries was ready to come out after each respite.

Sharkey by no means a technical boxer,outsized and out reached ,had no difficulty consistantly landing on Jeffries.
"I was sure one of us would be killed"- Jeffries

And the very fact that he was called an" Iron Man" and super durable, demonstrates that he proved it by shipping copious amounts of punishment

Read contemporary accounts of Jeffries fights,watch the footage available.
Do you honestly see an elusive,boxer with even average defence?
In what fights have you seen Jeffries slipping punches?

In actual combat I see zero head movement from Jeffries and precious little footwork.
He had so little defensive head movement that Tommy Ryan was brought in to teach him the crouch to avoid some of the punches that had hitherto landed so frequently on his face.

I wil concede his strength .
I will concede his toughness and durability.
I will concede he was fast for a man of his size[in those times].
BUT please when discussing defence, do not put the name of Jeffries in the same paragraph as ALI.

That is several bridges too far.