james j jeffries

Did boxers of the 1914 sport a modern, gloved boxing style or one that resembled a bareknuckle one?

Well, let's see, 1914 stance:

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1880, bareknuckle boxing stance:

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1940's, gloved boxing stance:

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You be the judge.

 

I dont think that Jeffries would take too much advantage of this, but one could imagine that fitzsimmons would have a field day with Liston so off balance. Might be a stylistic upset that i have not considered there. Johnson would be another.

 

This post is flawed in more ways than one.

It assumes that the postures adopted in posed photos represent the postures that these fighters fought in. This is not the case today and it probably was not the case then.

It assumes that Sullivan was a bare knuckle fighter which he clearly wasn't. He had four bouts under London Prize Ring rules against hundreds of gloved bouts. He was basicaly as much a gloved fighter as Jack Johnson was.

I would finaly point out that you could select examples of fighters utilising all these stances in virtualy any era. Especialy if you were only limited to one still photograph.

 

I actually agree with McVey on this. The manuals from the 1860s to 1890s are more or less unanimous in advising fighters to keep their hands low.

Oddly, the manuals from 1780-1840 tell them to keep the hands high. This leads me to wonder whether early Queensberry Rules actually encouraged a LOWER hand position...though I have no idea why.

 

Lets not forget that both combatants are out of range of each others punches,look where Moran's right arm is
.I think you are stretching this to say that is a stance that would be common during ,or immediately prior to an exchange of punches.Agenda driven?

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Very interesting debate to read.

My own take:

1. Off ringside reports, Jeff had the most defensive problems with the left jab. Choynski is described as cutting him up and perhaps being able to win out in a finish fight with his jab. This is not good for Jeff when facing Liston.

2. Liston had the most problems with the right overhand counter as he plunged forward with that power jab. Because of his extreme sideways stance and shove forward style, he probably saw left hooks much better than rights. Louis had a similar problem, as pointed out by Angelo Dundee. But Jeffries was scored by contemporaries such as W W Naughton for being a one-handed fighter. Off the limited film, I do not remember him throwing an overhand right at all. He does throw an underhand right to the body and perhaps a right uppercut occasionally. There are combinations in which he adds swinging rights to his lefts, but most of the time it is left to the body, left to the head, back to left to the body, then to the head, against Ruhlin. Jeff does not seem to have had what would be the best weapon against Liston.

3. Johansson, after viewing film of Liston, commented that Liston was most effective when getting off first and that the way to fight him was to carry the fight quickly to him as Williams did. This is probably Jeff's best shot. He must move in quickly and make Liston fight inside, backing him up if possible. At long distance, I think the jab cuts him up.

4. Liston took a decent punch, but his chin might not have been quite top flight. He was dropped by Marshall, stunned by Whitehurst, staggered badly by King, dropped by Willis Earls, and ko'd by Ali and Martin. He was probably more vulnerable to rights than left hooks because he was less likely to see them with that lean forward jab of his. Jeff's chin was certainly proven against the men he fought. Even the Johnson collapse came after an extensive beating. This could be a critical edge.

5. If Jeff can force the fight inside, and I think he has the size and foot speed and chin to possibly do it, I think he wins in the late rounds. If Liston can keep the fight at a distance, he chops up Jeff sooner or later.

This is a toss a coin fight, I think, but I would go with Liston because he has the strengths to exploit Jeff's weaknesses. Styles favor Liston.

 

Interesting and perceptive points.
The punches that dropped LISTON , where they right hands?
My opinion of Jeffries is that for all his size and strength ,he was rarely the aggressor early ,I could be wrong but film doesnt support this, neither does accounts of his fights , except for the Fitz second fight where he took the initiative early,and the Johnson fight where he did well in the first 3 /4 rounds.As Jeffries fought in a crouch I think he would have difficulty landing right hands over Liston's thrown left jab, tall fighters such as Ali could drop it in ,but although Jeffries was not short ,he fought short, and seemed to wait to counter .
Liston was not dropped by Williams who [though the fights were brief]. did land some heavy stuff.
The Ali fight is open to question imo,and Liston was past 40 when Martin kod him,Martin was an underated puncher imo.

Jeffries would be in danger of a tko stoppage I think,I don't see Liston koing him.
I see Liston's jab as the key to victory here,but the longer the fight went the more Jeffries chances would increase imo.
Jeffries was a good puncher ,but not a dynamite one imo, to win this he has to wear down Liston late, I dont envisage him winning a decision, for me he HAS to get a stoppage .Liston for me.

 

1. I don't remember about Earls, but the others were all rights.

2. Jeff was not usually the aggressor early, but he would have to change this aspect of his style against Liston to have a good shot, I think. Jeff could not fight passively.

3. Basically, I agree with your take. The wild card is that Jeff consistently showed a great deal of heart. Liston? There are legitimate questions. What happens if Jeff is still there as the rounds drag on?

 

As Hamlet said "That is the question".:good

 

Correct. The poster named Mcvey loves to go negative on Jeffries, sometimes without the facts. Jim's brother James was a fair fighter. Indeed he busted Johnson's nose before if was Ko'd. I don' think Jack Jeffries was bad. He was a joruneyman type, and obviosuly gave Jack Johnson a good fight.

Agreed again, but Mcvey has a problem seeing what the rest of us see. I'm not sure if he doesn't;t know what to look for or simply relishes the role of playing devil's advocate...even when he's holding the losing hand.

Marshall was not as great as Choynski, and we know what happened to Sonny when he first meet Marshall. Some claim Sonny Liston got favorable judging vs Johnny Summerlin in one of his early fights.

In actuality, the second Sharkey fight postponed two times. Jeffries beat Sharkey injured. It is rare to see a world class fighter beat another with a bad injury.

We shall see. Adam does fine work, and like myself uses primary sources instead of relying on book quotes which in some cases have incorrect information.

 

Some figthers with low hands can get away with it. Espeically the ones with quick feet and head movement. Jeffries had solid skills in these departments.

In fact some of the harder heavies to hit like Ali, or Vitail K have lowish guards. Yet they posess good punch anticpation, and move their head and feet well to avoid blows.