James J Jeffries?

There are things you’ve stated that I don’t necessarily disagree with but there are still many digressions.

If Johnson had been granted his shot when it was due and beat Jeffries, then immediately and in that moment Johnson would’ve become # 1.

Johnson existed and was clearly eligible during Jeff’s era. Jeff didn’t face him so he couldn’t claim to be the best of his era.

Further, IF Johnson had beaten Jeff in 03/04, that’s a younger Johnson atop the throne, and Johnson’s best work was primarily achieved before he won the title.

So what would Jeff do upon defeat? Retire or demand an immediate rematch? What if Johnson affirmed his superiority with another victory over a still, relatively young Jeffries in the rematch?

It could’ve played out much differently if Jeff engaged Johnson when he should have. As to best of the era otherwise - Jeffries might’ve beaten Fitz H2H but his results against common opponents Sharkey and Ruhlin pale in comparison.

Fitz properly earned and deserved a rematch around 1900. Period. That he wasn’t somehow granted same is an indictment on Jeffries.

Likewise, Corbett deserved a rematch in far closer proximity (time wise) to the first match.

Jeffries delayed rematches could be viewed as side steps, later presenting as “fillers” in lieu of fighting more deserving opposition - younger fighters who were actually active, Johnson being atop of that heap.

 

Great post,I wish I had writtten!

 

Cheers. Not returning in kind for its own sake but you’ve written plenty of tops posts.

 

Johnson was among a large group who had a case for a title shot. But it was not "due". The logic of if x gets title shot and beats champ he becomes number 1 applies to everyone.

There were a large group of fighters who "existed and were clearly eligible". You call it digressing but thats why I brought up Tunney. ATGs existed and were available for him to fight but that wasn't known at the time. Langford and Burns also "existed and were clearly eligible" they were both had like 1 loss at this point. They were also MWs Burns was 22-23 Langford was like 18 years old. But going by hindsight these were the 2 other guys Jeffries should have fought. They were available. They didn't have a HW belt like Johnson they also had way better records.


Maybe its debatable Johnsons best work was before he won the lineal title, its close. It was not before he won the "colored" title and it was not during Jeffries reign. Johnson beat Jeanette and Munroe in 1905 though he also lost to Jeanette and Hart, he beat Langford and Jeanette a few more times in 1906 and finally old Fitzsimmons, Lang and Jim Flynn in 1907. Only the 1907 ones were KOs. When Jeffries was fighting Johnson was 1-2-3 against Jeffries opponents. His best win at that point might be over LHW champ Gardner who he outwighed by 30. He had the 3 McVea wins before McVeas 20th birthday. Johnson did not have a overwhelming case to fight for the title when Jeffries was fighting in 1903 and 1904. Johnsons 9 year unbeaten streak started in December 1905.

Whether there would be a rematch in this hypothetical likely depends how decisive the loss was.

I agree the nearly 2 year delay was a bit much.

Corbett had lost 3 fights in a row despite looking good in 2 of them and hadn't won a fight in 6 years. From an age standpoint I see what you mean you want the fight sooner but Corbett really didn't deserve an insta rematch. He probably should have won other fights too instead of beating McCoy and getting the rematch after 3 more years.

I agree and I'm always complaining about what Usyks doing today. But while Jeffries was fighting retreads from the 19th century there weren't a clear younger alternative. At least not after Martins losses to Johnson and Armstrong. There were also no Kabayels who were undefeated 30 somethings who never sniffed a title. Jeffries cleaned out the division except Martin and Childs by 1901 then treaded water for a few years with the rematches and the Munroe fight. After Jeffries retired there was a large group of potential successors and none really stood out that much based on that time Johnson and a bunch of LHW and MW titlelists in Schreck, Root, Hart, O Brien, Gardner, Jack Twin Sullivan and this is not to mention the British fighters like Moir, Palmer and Mike Williams. Jeanette, Kaufman and Langs careers all started in 1905.

 

In1905, when Jeffries had his last fight as champion, Langford weighed 155lbs,he was never a factor at heavyweight duringJeffries reign.

 

I was making a point about hindsight. Also Fitz was 158 when he KO'd the Akron Giant. 167 when he fought Jeffries. Langford was actually 140 at this point not a MW.

In all seriousness I really do think Langford at MW could have maybe taken Jeffries. He was 19-1-0 before he turned 18. Let him put on some weight and give him a shot!!

 

I seem to recall an old magazine quoting Langford saying he would fight anyone in the world except Jeffries, suggesting that he feared Jeff.

Then again, at my age, I seem to recall a lot of things that mightn't have happened

 

I think that you are a little bit guilty of judging fights of the early 1900s, in line with modern politics, and ignoring the opinions of the press and the public at the time.

Fitzsimons was a huge draw after he defeated Ruhlin and Sharkey, and part of the reason that he was "inactive" for two years, is that he was making huge money with exhibition tours.

This is the fight that the public wanted to see, and Johnson would not have been viewed as a stronger challenger based on beating Martin.

The clamor for a Corbett rematch was less strong, but still widely viewed as being overdue.

It is obvious to us in hindsight that Wladamir Klitschko would have made a better challenger for Lennox Lewis than Mike Tyson, but that doesn't mean that it was obvious at the time.

 

Could you point out the page in Adam Pollack's biog of Jeffries in which Joe Kennedy was a sparring partner of Jeffries leading up to their fight. I checked the references to Kennedy in the index. As far as I can tell, Kennedy didn't become Jeff's sparring partner until the rematches with Fitz and Corbett. Off Adam, Jeff did not even have a training camp when he fought Griffin and Kennedy. Jack Jeffries and Bob Armstrong would be his sparring partners in his training for Ruhlin.

As for the Kennedy fight being a championship fight, it was scheduled for four rounds. I can't believe Jeff would risk his title on such a short fight. They were going to give a decision, but I doubt the title could have changed hands on that basis.

My point with Childs is that a middleweight who had lost to Creedan, been KO'd by Choynski, and drew with Kennedy, might not have been a man that anyone was clamoring for to get a shot at the 220 lb. Jeffries. Do you have quotes from contemporaries demanding ot at least suggesting Jeff fight Childs rather than Sharkey, Corbett, Ruhlin, and Fitz?

 

In 1906 156lbs Langford was beaten up by185lbs Johnson,had his nose broken and was floored 3 times for long 9 counts,he wasn't beating Jeffries in1905.

 

The info came from another source,I cannot recall which.The Kennedy fight was not a title defence.
Do you have quotes clamoring for Jeffries to defend against Finnegan and Munroe?

 

In the 19th century 4 rounds was an acceptable title fight with Sharkey v Corbett I being the last one at HW I think. There were quite a few 6 round title fights after this but all Jeffries title fights and major fights were at least 10 rounds. I don't consider Kennedy or Griffin II to be title fights.

At this point titles changing hands because of decisions was controversial period even with a full 20 rounds or whatever. After Burns beat Hart by decision Hart still had some recognition as champ going into the Schreck fight. At LHW until the 1920s there are title fights where the winner didn't get the title because it had to be a KO.

 

If you look at the McVea v Munroe thread I linked a page claiming Munroe almost knocked Jeffries out in a 4 round exhibition in 1903. Jeffries took a 9 count. This is probably the main reason Munroe received a real title shot but it doesn't show up on his record.

 

I now what Munroe claimed,and its BS.
CBZ.
Some sources state that Munroe knocked Jeffries down;
Actually, Jeffries slipped to the floor while throwing a punch;
Munroe went to the floor several times to avoid taking blows;
This bout was not held during 1903 (as some sources report)

 

Just checked CBZ Kennedy fought Jeffries in1901 ,there is no record there of Kennedy sparring with Jeffries till after that date ,so it seems I was wrong.