James J Jeffries?

Past legends who were white - possessing the skin tone that Jeffries was only willing to accept.

Corbett, as I have illustrated, primarily orchestrated his own, ultimately accommodated challenge - including the coercion to assume himself as Champion due to Jeff’s own inactivity (as if Corbett was one to talk, that’s my opinion) as you yourself said - and he wasn’t so legendary to have the majority believe he had a chance, let alone the ability to defeat Jeff.

It’s strange (ironic?) that some of us have been accused of not being appreciative and in step with those “times”.

The reality is, we have been well tuned into those “times” and our appreciation and integration of same actually serves to solidify our arguments, not detract from them.

 

Of course anyone would care if they’re endeavouring to sort fact from fiction, and due eligibility from lack of eligibility.

If he had been white, Johnson more than likely would’ve capitalised himself by flattening Jeffries bro, issuing a challenge to Jeffries immediately after along with the qualifications of Johnson’s record going forward.

But Jack was black, so it all went nowhere.

Let’s bite the bullet and crystallise your point.

IF Munroe hadn’t faced Jeff in their exhibition, therefore removing the opportunity to drop Jeff or falsely claim that he did, you say Monroe gets his shot anyway by fighting two shot ducks?

I don’t think so.

Munroe’s shot absolutely pivoted on the claim that he dropped Jeffries - both parties would’ve understood that some padding on Munroe’s record wouldn’t hurt to provide a shred of illusory dignity to Munroe being granted a shot.

Let’s say Johnson beats those same white opponents as at the time - would the media across the board have believed that it would’ve strongly recommended Johnson for a shot? Of course not.

Why? Because Jeffries made it clear that he wouldn’t defend against black fighters -

There were sections of the media that pushed back hard on Jeffries standing behind the colour line - other sections simply didn’t entertain Johnson simply because Jeffries himself clearly wasn’t entertaining to fight Jack under any circumstance because he was black.

And, the colour line also prevented Johnson ever having a chance at the likes of Sharkey and co., easy “name” scalps as at the time anyway.

We’re talking a very knowing, contrived and exclusive white boys club as at the time - led by Jeffries.

Had Jeffries reign somehow shifted forward in time to end in 1908, I would take it the bank that he would’ve still precluded Johnson.

Even if the very best black fighter was objectively measured to be far superior to the very worst white challenger, the “order of merit” dictated that, if the choice came down to just those two, said white would be given the chance instead.

Whether one argues for it being right or wrong in the context of the times, it doesn’t matter.

The very preclusions themselves put Jeffries perceived dominance over the rest of the field into question.

 

Hi Buddy.
Excellent breakdown of the topic, precise, concise, and word perfect, really should be the definitive post on this discussion.
stay safe Pugguy, chat soon .

 

Too kind Mike but thank you.

 

Perspective is sadly lacking among the Jeffries adherents.

 

You claim that even without the supposed KD Munroe was a real contender.
Lets look at that.
Munroe's previous fight was .
A win over a thoroughly washed up Sharkey who had not fought for 2 years nor won a fight for 4 years ,Sharkey floored him.
Limerick. A debutee who never fought again.
Maher.The glass chinned Maher had won 1 fight of his last6 and that was over the Human Punching Bag Joe Grim by a dsq. Maher had been ko'd in 3 of those contests and badly thrashed in 2 others by Jack O Brien .
Those ko's were by Choynski 2 rds, Gardner 1 rd ,and Kid Carter 2 rds.
Prior to this Munroe had beaten 3rd rater Hayes 31-16-5.
Sullivan. A debutee, Munroe lost a technical decision when he failed to stop Sullivan as he had contracted to do.
Stokes .A debutee,never fought again.
Mulverhill,1-5-1.He would retire after this 1-6-1.
Shaughnessy.A debutee.,having his one and only fight .
Griffin. A decision loss.
That's the resume of a contender ?

 

I’ve definitely read numerous counter points that aren’t flattering to Jeffries that have been
skipped over.

I guess at the very least it’s opened up traffic discussing the old timers.

 

Johnson's view is clearly far more realistic than that of the contemporary media, but it illustrates the almost mythical status that Fitzsimmons and Corbett held.

If Jeffries had retired a year earlier, I imagine many people would have assumed that Fitzsimmons was shoe in to be champion again.

 

"I am pretty sure Jeff absolutely refuted Corbett's claim at the time."

It is not exactly he said, he said. Here is the evidence Adam provides in his Jeff book:

W W Naughton, the San Francisco Examiner--"Suddenly Corbett made a stand and waited for one of Jeffries' left swings. Jim bent his head to avoid contact and sent his right in with a jerky right swing. He reached Jeffries' jaw and the big fellow flopped on his knees, his face resting against Corbett's stomach. Corbett placed the palms of his hands to the side of Jeffries head and steadied him for a few seconds. When the fog had cleared from Jeffries' brain, Corbett assisted him to his feet and the bout was over."

Adam makes clear Naughton was at ringside for this sparring match.

Trainer Charley White--"He dropped Jeffries this morning with the shortest of short arm blows."

Trainer Billy Delaney--"The blow that he dropped Jeffries with was a right jolt, and as usual it was delivered at short range."

Jim Corbett--"The punch I caught Jeffries with was a right hook at close quarters."

Jim Jeffries--"I was never slugged like that before in my life. I know that I can take a hard smash, and I had an idea that it was next to impossible to put me out. I was not completely out, but I was so close to it that there was no fun in it. He hit me from such short range, I was right on top of him when he let go, and the jar was the funniest thing I ever felt. My knees struck the floor and I had pins and needles all over me."

The local Carson newspaper--"both Jeffries and Woods were floored."

Rocky Mountain News--"Jim allowed the big fellow to corner him and then, seeing a good opening after one of Jeffries' wild swings, he threw himself forward and shot out his right arm from a half bent position, catching Jeffries squarely on the point of the jaw. The big fellow went flat on the floor and was assisted to his dressing room by Delaney and White."

San Francisco Chronicle--"Corbett suddenly stepped in close, a la Fitzsimmons, and landing a stiff right to the jaw, knocked Jeffries down and out."

New York World--"Corbett has worked up a short armed jolt. . . . It was this blow which unexpectedly knocked out Jeffries. the 210 lb. youth."

Adam lists quotes from Jeff and Delaney in 1900 claiming all this was a fabrication. William Brady was also in that camp, but I don't remember evidence he was present for the sparring.

Adam notes that the Hearst papers, such as the Examiner, were noted for sensational journalism and not being slaves to honesty. (the term back them was yellow journalism. Now fake news)

But he sums it up well. Adam Pollack--"Was the story of Jeff being dropped a fabrication? If it was, it was a very good one, given all the detail in the descriptions and the quotes from everyone involved. These writers had to be very good at what they did. This should actually give one pause for concern when writing history."

"Even if the story was true, there is no shame in getting dropped in sparring by an experienced world champion with a perfectly timed speedy punch when you are green and rushing forward into the punch."

*All quotes from Adam Pollack--In the Ring with James J Jeffries, pages 33-38.
--------------------------

My personal take after reading Adam's sources is that it far more likely than not that Jeff was knocked down by Corbett, Jeff's later denial to the contrary. As Adam points out, these writers did a very good job of being consistent. And I must wonder why anyone would go to such lengths as to fabricate this knockdown and apparently buy off reporters to plant a story about knocking down a largely unknown sparring partner. Jeff had barely fought to this point. This KD might be a big deal in retrospect. But at the time was it worth a conspiracy to add a sparring knockdown of an unknown to the resume of the man who had KO'd the great John L?

 

It wasn't in a ring ,it was in a handball court. I don't place too much stock in sparring KD's,even if they happen to a man like Jeffries who certainly had a top chin.
Vitali was knocked down in sparring by Travis Walker and Raphael Butler.
Marciano by Toxie Hall,discussing the KD Rocky said,"it was a good punch,but in sparring you try different things out."

 

Getting knocked down in sparring doesn't mean much in most cases.

But Jeffries was into making strong denials he was ever off his feet with either Corbett or Munroe. The evidence in these cases should be explored. It reflects on Jeff's reliability as a source.

Note that Marciano did not deny being knocked down. Jeff did.

 

No, black fighters like Jackson and Dixon had a similar legendary status.

 

Marciano was always candid in interviews.Jeffries less so ,hence the drugged tea excuse for losing to Johnson.
I think perhaps Jeffries own sense of himself depended a great deal on his perceived aura of instructability.
In my town there is an ex bouncer who must be 240lbs,he has arms bigger than my legs ,we were in a pub one Sunday lunchtime and the Landlady asked him to open a screw top jar of pickled eggs,he was unable to do it,and as a joke gave it to me,I opened it and gave it to the Landlady.
It seemed pretty obvious to me that he had loosened it right down to that last crucial turn ,and that I just happened to get the benefit of his efforts.
No big deal,but he was very deflated about it,maybe Jeffries machismo was similar, an important part of his raison de/ etre?

 

I love this McVey. Possibly the most British story I've read on this site.