James J Jeffries?

"one can read between the lines in all objectivity"

I go with Occam's Razor here. The simplest explanation is the likely one. There are a lot of quotes as evidence from a whole bunch of newspapers in 1897. The 1900 (and later memoir takes by Jeff) seems to rely on two sources--Jeff and Delaney. It is possible Jeff didn't even have a memory of what happened. Delaney had broken with Corbett and gone over to Jeff. The 1897 fight was long past, but a knockdown controversy could help with the 1900 gate with Corbett.

So of the two options? The heavyweight champion, who in real fights had stopped Sullivan, and would drop Fitz, caught a big and strong but inexperienced Jeff with a perfect right and dropped him,

versus a conspiracy to fabricate a knockdown which didn't occur. Some questions. Why not just pay Jeff to take a sparring camp dive if that is the story you want to put out? The newspapers reported two men being knocked down that day. Was the knockdown of Woods also a fake? Did any of the objective observers, namely a newsman, ever retract his story?

And how much mileage could Corbett get from knocking out an inexperienced sparring partner anyway? This would impact Fitz? Let's be real. Jeff had hardly been fighting. How would anyone know if he had a good chin?

And why would the very experienced Corbett have to "set up" Jeff, who had had barely any fights yet? It is far more likely he could out fox Jeff with skill. Objectively, Corbett was a mile better than anyone Jeff had boxed with up to that time.

As McVey posted, this would be a big to do about not much except for the legend (or myth) that Jeff could not be hurt and was never knocked off his feet. This legend seems to have been very important to Jeff's fans, and even more so to Jeff himself.

 

Sorry to hear that but lol re the cards. Any sneak peaks at that age can never be passed up - the old torch light under the covers, literally.

Yeah, I’m only talking Fitz at HW and by expert, I meant at estimating weights - based on all available records and vision.

Not to say that you’re not an expert otherwise. You clearly know your ****.

Once the available, relevant data is in hand (no mean feat collecting same), we’re all on pretty much on the same ground as far as estimating weights go.

I don’t that they were framing for P4P honours as we know them today.

However, claiming to be smaller than you actually were didn’t hurt the perception of the degree of achievement and it could’ve also been employed to mislead the opponent.

Jeffries for one contested Fitz being as light as Fitz claimed for their first fight.

We only have one visual record of that event - the famous handshake photo - and Fitz doesn’t appear to be as light as 167 lbs - but again, he had those damn skinny legs.

Fitz was a true physical hybrid, having a HW’s build (for the day) up top and a MW’s physical attributes below. Old Bob obviously skipped leg days.

 

Others, and I guess Adam is among them, will probably know more than me about the practices of weigh ins for HW contests from that era. I.e. how well controlled they were. Whether fighters were consistently clothed or undressed. Perhaps more about the Corbett weigh instance that I mentioned. Etc.

From the relatively little I recall reading on the subject, weigh in practices weren't consistently well controlled and fighters weighed in fully clothed at least on occasion.

I think we are agreed this means that the recorded weights are less reliable than both they were in that day for weights contested below HW and than they are today at HW. And that, on the balance of probability, that explains Fitz's inconsistent recorded weights, which on the face them, don't appear genuine.

As for whether Fitz's higher outliers or lower HW outliers represent reality, I'd guess the lower on the basis of:

1) It's easier to cheat the scales upwards, I.e. by putting weights in your pockets, than down.
2) The only instance I recall reading about the issue was that Fitz put weights in his pockets for the Corbett weigh in, weighing in privately at 158lbs earlier that morning.
3) To my eye, at 5ft 11.5ins with shoulders that were broad relative to his tiny waist and stick thin legs, but without a heavily muscled upper body and without an ounce of fat, the pictures I've seen of Fitz put him at c.160lbs as a guess.

I'm not confident in either of those two guesses though.

 

I think Jeffries had already garnered himself a rep (including for durability) a rep not least being due to the KO of Griffin. I think the headline read Corbett KOs BIG Jim Jeffries - an emphasis on Jeff’s notable size. If it was fabricated or not, I can definitely see gains for Corbett.

Allegedly it was a body shot?? of all things that laid Jeff low - and a punch that was described as not appearing that hard - which could lend to Jeff hitting the deck but with some suspicion attached re how such a punch could put Jeff down.

Atop that, Corbett wasn’t at all a reputed puncher. Would Corbett set Jeffries up for a damaging shot under false pretences - yes, definitely I would think - he wasn’t the nicest fellow.

Having said this, if Jeffies was somehow KD’d, no problem. I’ve highlighted several clearly mythical claims re Jim. I’m just not so sure about this KD/KO claim - but it’s certainly interesting to discuss.

 

"I can definitely see gains for Corbett"

Hard for me to see what they are. If I were him, I would want Fitz to underestimate me. Why advertise a punch you don' t have? Why claim a phony achievement? This is a man who had knocked out Sullivan. Few in 1897 are going to be impressed with a KD over a largely unknown sparring partner. Certainly not a veteran like Fitz. The best which can be said is it might hype the fight a bit, but only a bit.

Your description of the punch, a body blow and not hard, is not what the next day papers wrote. It was a short right cross to the point of the jaw from most sources.

I fall back on Occam's Razor. The simplest answer to explain everything is that Corbett caught the green Jeff with a right cross and dropped him.

The reasons for an elaborate conspiracy just aren't compelling to me.

"Corbett wasn't at all a reputed puncher"

He had knocked out Sullivan, Mitchell, and Choynski. What isn't explained to me is if Corbett couldn't punch, what good would it do to fake having a punch? In the event Corbett had enough of a punch to drop Fitz and come close to stopping him.

 

Very fair points mate. IIRC, Jeffries quite often didn’t actually weigh in himself, rather, his weights were supplied. I don’t even think either he or Johnson actually stepped on the scales before their fight. At least we can see, shall I say, a portly Johnson on the scales prior to his match with Willard - and we can see Big Jess weigh in also. As Mr Google told me, the legs account for about 35% body weight on average - so Fitz was losing in that regard, lol.

 

PUGGUY is as good a poster as this forum has.
What did he do to get banned?