Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Nov 17, 2022.
I have provided them multiple times, do I have to do so again?
Were any of them boxers? That is the point. We aren't talking power lifers here.
No, they were part time athletes. That is part of the point. The topic is what sort of athlete was Jeffries.
Go ahead and humor us.
Actually, not even age adjusted, it is.[/QUOTE]
This is covered in Adam Pollack's biography of Jeffries, and referenced appropriately..
San Francisco Call August 5, 7, 1904.
Obviously you can choose to believe these primary sources or not, but there is no higher standard of evidence than a primary source, when it comes to a fighter like Jeffries.
This is as well verified as anything can be from that era.
So what does it prove if true?
It would prove that Jeffries was among the strongest heavyweight champions of all time.
That wouldn't mean that he was great, or even particularly good, but it would mean that he was strong.
Now if we combine that with the film evidence that he was fast and coordinated, then it starts to look plausible that he was something special.
OK, then where do we rank a 36 year old chain smoking, beer guzzling King Harley Race when he picks up and slams a 520 pound Andre the Giant 13 minutes into a bout? Is he the greatest athlete of all time? By the way, he repeated this feat in his 40's.
If we had enough of history of professional wrestling and power lifters thread, I'd like to hear from the well researched Pollack. I'm not sure if he read post #1 in this tread at least initially.
No, but you would be on pretty safe ground saying that he was an exceptionally strong man, which is really all that I am claiming for Jeffries.
I have no problem with that.
These are very reasonable meditations, including reserving judgement as to your being possibly too skeptical.
The only caution I offer is that if he could & did run at that speed-admittedly at the edge of plausibility-we;; over 100 years ago with only a witness or two-nobody may have known, or realized how fast the time was.
But I freely concede that while possible, it seems more likely he exaggerated or mis-remembered.
He sure was exceptionally strong by all accounts. An observer noted that just prior to their first fight Jeffries lifted Bob Fitzimmons off the ground like he was a rag doll.
He didnt lift him he pushed him backwards,it was a ploy engineered by Jeffries manager to try and break Fitz's confidence, Brady began a fake argument about how the men would break ,he began wrangling with Fitz's manager deliberately being unreasonable the men began shouting and Jeffries who was reposing on a couch ,in just a jockstrap was waiting for Fitz who was next door to come in and see what all the fuss was about Fitz walked in and asked what all the row was about after being told it was over how the men would break ,Fitz was a bit puzzled as the issue had already been covered . Jeffries as he had been coached to do,now sprang up saying ,"you talk too much Brady this is how we will break!" With that he violently pushed the unprepared Fitz backwards and over some furniture and he and Brady stalked out.
A good plan to plant a seed of doubt in the mind of the overconfident Fitz,but no great feat of strength ,Fitz was a super mddleweight at best Jeffries a full sized 200lbs plus heavyweight.
This is a good example of the hype that gets spread around about Jeffries and repeated until it becomes unquestioned.
If true, then what I read even when a kid about him picking Fitz up was a total canard.
And what Jeffries team did was dirty & unsportsman-like.
Why even try this when already so much bigger & stronger? Sad.
Jeffries contradicted himself many times,he did it over the first Griffin fight changing the year several times, his age several times and claiming it was his first fight.He also claimed he was drugged against Johnson. Primary sources are from objective observers with no axe to grind not extracts from ghosted biographies like ,"Two Fisted Jeff" etc
It was part of the business,young Jeffries wasn't the most confident of men he bet on Fitz in their first fight,saying," if I win I won't need the money and if I lose it will come in handy"
Its very possible Brady ,his manager was attempting to not only rattle Fitz but to instil some confidence in his young challenger.
Nice to see you back BTW.