Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Nov 17, 2022.
It's not a true time warp until I post this video
He did the same thing to Sharkey. In fact he picked him up into the air and shook him back and forth like child. See the press reports.
Excellent info as always.
As you detailed previously also, I know that info is quoted from Adam Pollack’s Jeffries book (which I fortunately have also) - Adam sourced the details from Jeff’s own bio IIRC.
Jeff more or less supports that description in this 1935 article - he only adds that they assumed the clinch position before he shoved Fitz away.
Jeff makes a point to note that he saw no reactive fear or intimidation in Fitz - just Fitz’s apparent, sheer appreciation of Jeff’s strength.
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If reading the article on your IPhone just swipe right to left with your thumb to turn the pages.
On the second page of the article, starting at the top left corner you will read Jeffries stating that professional foot racing was common and that he ran foot races for money.
Jeffries indicates that he did apply himself somewhat to running in terms of training and competing.
He also states that it was easy to get a bet against him due to him looking slow and heavy.
Of course, in terms of source(s) it seems all roads lead back to Big Jeff himself.
The old, indirectly sourced anecdote that I used to read was Jeff lifting Bob off the ground (no biggie) and giving him a bone crushing bear hug - don’t know where that description originated from - but in ballpark terms simply a similar show of strength which reads as that bit more impressive.
If I'm being completely honest - it's only my respect for his place historically that stops ms from calling the running claims complete nonsense with more profane language
The more I think about it - if he's got the speed to run as quickly in normal clothes and non-running specific footwear on an inefficient surface to where he can repeat the feat so often in such short duration, then there would certainly have been much press, wagers and all manner of weird things - perhaps even races against racing dogs or horses or the like.
Yeah, great athlete, quick runner, not world class sprinter and I'm not convinced that he had world class potential to boot. I completely agree that if he loses weight and retains power and strength ideal for a sprinter and dedicated sprint coaching and training, things could get interesting.
Interesting that Jeffries also claims to have run 14 miles in an hour and twenty-eight minutes. If true, it would mean that he was not just an elite sprinter but an elite long distance runner as well.
Jeff did mention in 1899 that he was going to race Barnes(his manager?) in Dublin over 50 yards for a side bet of a pony(25 pounds). I dont know would i rate 1-28 as an elite time, translate to about 1.22 for a half.
It seems more likely than not that he misremembered or exaggerated.
But where I think you are mistaken is assuming *if* he could run that fast under these conditions, that it would necessarily have attracted attention.
He mentioned doing it once, with very few present.
If that was true, what makes you think anyone there-unfamiliar with the sprint world-would likely even recognize exactly how good it was, or what his potential was?
We agree on the rough potential he likely had-more so if he was around 225 lbs. at the time.
You can say that if he was used to the conditions & he had competition he would have run faster.
However maybe it somewhat balances out, since hand timing tends to subtract 2/10ths or .24 of a second, & Owen's best was a world record 10.2.
Question is, all other things being equal, what are the time equivalencies of runs in both conditions?
Compensating for average inaccuracies in hand timing, how much time does having the ancient track conditions, no starting blocks & those shoes & clothes ADD to a time?
In other words if you could have a human or robot do the exact same run in the distinct conditions, what would be the discrepency in time, or percentages, between both conditions?
Not considering how modern training, science, nutrition made performances a bit better...
Would the difference under FAT (electronic timing) be say 3%, or almost 1/3 of a second?
That would suggest Owens reincarnated, only given practice runs under the new conditions, but no new or different training, would have a best time of not 10.2, but 9.9.
Considering hand timing may have benefited them a bit, Is that fair, or too much?
In a world where you are part of the entourage of the world champion or an elite fighter and they produce such feats, even if they don't talk about it, you certainly do.
Entourages by their very nature build up their man, they're the hype job and I cannot envisage a world where wagers, tall tales and trying to one up your competition sees a potential elite sprinter not be recognised for the potential, if not by his own peers, certainly by the guys that saw him do such. In a world full of ego, and every world champion has ego, I envisage that he would tell this story to anyone within ear shot, especially if his place in history starts being challenged post prime but even whilst at the height of his powers. I might be wrong in assumption of what would have happened had he really done it re: coverage - I just flat out don't think he did it.
The lion never writes the story of the hunt and with only his word and nothing else outside the camp, independently verifying his capability here, I cannot reconcile myself with the image of his possessing such ability without any training and being significantly oversized for elite sprinting physiology, at the same time noting apparent high-level distance running capability. The two alleged capabilities don't marry themselves in my mind.
I cannot tell what those number mean.
Can you rewrite it, 1-28 = what units of measurement & what distance is a "half"?
Odds are it is exaggerated.
But if he did it, like I said about his entourage, he may well may not have even known how fast it was.
It is not like today where all information is everywhere.
It would be high level distance ability for his time only, yes sir-not nearly elite today.
What makes it intriguing is that over a measure of YARDS not meters, some guys bigger than him can move faster untrained-see prior posts on this thread-although given the conditions he must have had, yes it is reasonable to be skeptical!
Some guys bigger, yes, untrained specific to sprinting, yes, but still all likely involved in sports that require some footspeed proficiency in a way that boxing of Jeffries' time didn't.
Boxing isn't a regular sport - it is a martial art. Sprinting ability isn't synonymous with good boxing fundamental footwork - agility and coordination will of course help, but boxers rarely have to sprint from a starting point in a linear line in fight conditions. Sprinting can and should be used by fighters for physiological benefit but yeah, I am sceptical on Jeffries abilities here, given the context of attire, conditions and equipment.
It means one hour 28 minutes, roughly equivalent to one hour 22 minutes for 13.1 miles.ie a half marathon. I was very average but could do 1-20, even now at 65, I can beat 1-50. Still good running for a big, heavy man but not elite.
Bear in mind this was 1899 - you could win the Olympic marathon with a time not much under 3 hours.
You are in *excellent* condition.
Maybe you were average for a competitive runner.
For the general population you are still waaaaay above the norm.