James Jeffries as an athlete.

Sorry, not that impressed. It's just OK. A dozen or more 13 year old dudes run faster every year.

It means he was a decent athlete, nothing crazy. The 11.54 is an absolute best case scenario. In the article he claims his average time was 10.4, not 10.2, which again given the base case, get's us to 11.74... which is kinda meh even for a guy at 225. I've seen PLENTY of guys that big go much faster. And I'm compensating both ways equally for track surface versus home cooking timing.

In fact I do remember that Corrie Sanders, that strapping specimen, broke 11 seconds for the 100 meters.

 

Interesting as I think I read all of them but I do not doubt you .. BTW, nice to see you back !

 

With no starting blocks and with 1890s shoes? Are you sure?

 

Thanks H E.I'll try to dig the quote out, I'm flying toSorrento early Monday ,so it might not be for a while.

 

Looking at Jeffries build huge legs and not that tall,if the times are in any way near correct,I think they are pretty impressive.

 

Sure. Alan Wells didn't like starting blocks and he did alright. Deion Sanders ran a 10.2 hundred meters in a pair of old basketball shoes. Jim Thorpe ran an 11.2 in pouring rain, wearing a pair of mismatched shoes he found in a garbage can.

He was a grown azz professional athlete MAN. He damn well better run under 12 seconds for the hundy.

 

Despite what appears as obvious hyperbole, it’s important to return to the more realistic notion that Jeffries’ was probably a pretty good athlete as you have done Matt, - so as to not throw the baby out with the bath water in so far as being only taken up with quashing the more obvious exaggerations.

I ordered Tracy Callis’ VHS vid on Jeffries some years back. Well worth the money, very nicely put together and it takes an impassioned fan like Tracy to put together and produce something like that. Mr Callis was also great to correspond with.

For quite some time the footage on the vid was not available even on YouTube. Now some of it, if not all, has seeped into You Tube.

For sure, Jeffries appears impressively nimble sparring with his brother Jack (Charles) - I know, it’s only Jack but still……and Jeff also looks quite agile in other aspects of his training - skipping, shadow boxing with weights etc.

However, it seems Jeff didn’t necessarily show this agility/mobility off in the ring - perhaps somewhat contained within himself.

Could this be put down to Jeffries apparently not being the most confident of fighters )he certainly didn’t love the game) and/or his training inappropriately geared to absorbing punishment simply because he could? A tactic meant to tire out the opposition before Jeffries stepped it up?

It’s interesting that Jeffries was often described as taciturn, somewhat corroborated by other reports - and that disposition is at odds with his reported bragging re some less believable feats of strength and athleticism.

Perhaps all that stuff was more about Jeffries’ team pushing the mythical agenda - not so much Jeffries? Dunno.

I’ve linked this article before but it seems apt to link it again, here. It’s not so easily found on the net - at least not for me. Lol.

For those who haven’t read it before, please enjoy fellow old timer fans, James J Jeffries: Inside Those Ropes:-

https://scvhistory.com/scvhistory/lw3586.htm

 

I think you have probably gotten to the nub of things.I've read Jeffries had the disposition of a hibernating bear ,rudely disturbed from his slumber.I doubt he gave two monkeys what the general public thought of him.It may well have been his "circle." hyping things up.
Jeffries actually fighting,or at least the,little there is of him to view,does not show him skipping around a ring demonstrating lots of movement.Sparring with your kid Brother poses no threat and so you would be free to show off some moves.
There is no fight footage of Jeffries that even remotely resembles that training clip when he was preparing for the 2nd Ruhlin fight.
In the actual fight Jeffries cautiously advances, chin somewhat protected by his raised left shoulder,his movements are measured and deliberate.
Jack Johnson can be seen on film sparring and shadow boxing with dumb bells in each hand,he covers the ground .fluidly and rapidly.There is no film of Johnson ,in an actual fight doing that. Its just meaningless window dressing imo.like some of these shoe shine hook and jab clips you can view.
Sure you can look a million dollars when you know nothing is coming back at you.
When you know a defensive lapse might mean a hard smack in the mouth it tends to make you rather more circumspect.or at least it always did me! lol

 

Okay, a quick diversion: this is about 9/10 years old. A 12 yo Aussie kid who ran 11.72 over 100 m. Haven’t checked on how he has progressed since then:-

https://www.joe.ie/sport/video-the-fastest-12-year-old-sprinter-youve-ever-seen-42671

 

Oh for sure. When I was younger I got into a few scrapes - and never did I execute as sweetly and calmly as I did on my heavy bag at home. A real good ‘un without a live body in front of me.

Is this perhaps analogous to us sounding great singing in the shower but not sounding so good when the karaoke mic is shoved at us in a bar?

I guess there is also the negative influence of the not so hidden variable of 1000 beers (for Dutch courage) required to get up and sing in public. If you’re a bit slurry Bob Dylan songs are always a good go to for some measure of “masking”. Lol.

 

You are absolutely not compensating properly for conditions.
First of all, you only mention track conditions.
It was not a track at all.
Next, you ignore clothes, & more importantly, no track shoes or spikes.
You did not address that there was a standing start, no blocks of any type.

It is demonstrably true that this all makes more difference than up to almost a 1/4 of a second for erroneous timing.
And it is not usually "home cooking"-there always may be subconscious bias-which is distinct from the phrase you use-but you must know that is is difficult to click the start & finish accurately...

Although it is possible he did not get that much of an advantage that you use, it sure is possible he did.
But what we do know is that Jeffries had a few conditions that NO runner ever does not lose a more significant % than the typical fast hand time.

Oh, & we forgot: anyone running against NO competition is likely to go slower, all other things being equal, than running with at least around equally fast people.
Given all of these factors, at the very least Jeffries, absent any training at all, should have been competitive with Corrie Sanders.
Of course assuming they were accurately at least hand timed at that speed.
And while I would have to research how much someone with all of these disadvantages loses, it adds up!

 

None of that shows that the H.S. kids could beat Jeffries under neutral conditions.
Other disadvantages like no track were not mentioned.
Sanders was one of the fastest football players ever-still I would like to see evidence of that run, but did he have a track? Id he have starting blocks? These things add up!

Jim Thorpe was the greatest athlete in the world & won the decathalon & pentathlon, 15 events, winning 8 of them.
That time, even with those terrible conditions (but he had starting blocks) would not be matched at the Olympics under ANY conditions until 1948!
His 1500 times-after most all events were done, running it the second times-would not be broken there until the 1970's.
In a tour of Europe after the games he beat the world champion at the hurdles.

My point is these ar extreme outliers, but THEY would be significantly faster under perfect modern conditions.

You think all make pro athletes could or even should/need to run under 12 seconds for the 100 Meters?
SOme of the best overall athletes, &/or top of their sport, maybe GOAT, could not do it.
Ali was not very fast, betchya he could not.
Many others too: but if you add in/up the clothes, shoes, no track, no starting blocks, running the race *alone*/no competition...

Relatively few pro male athletes not specializing in something requiring elite running speed would run under 12 seconds!

 

Comparing Jeffries to them proves my point.