James Toney- Could He Remain Upright Against Frazier?

Toney's greatest skill was survival and a gift. He could survive but objectively he'd have no chance of winning the fight.

 

Close SD by Toney as Frazier drags him into a war,but I'm not shocked if Frazier actually wears him down to another decision.

 

I think he’d get his right inside Joes hook because it was so wide at times… that or he smothers it, gets in and rips the uppercut. Joe fought off the front foot so his right was dead.

 

No chance? I think he’d at the least have a small one, wasn’t an ATG HW but he was an ATG fighter miles away in skill who seemingly held the weight better lol I believe Frazier trained up in weight, Toney just sort of settled into his real weight both guys were naturally around 190-210lbs.

 

Frazier outworks him for a decision with some very uncomfortable moments at the end for Toney.

 

You're using Jirov as a measuring stick as to how he'd survive Joe Frazier? To go the distance Toney will have to hurt Frazier, he'd need a blackjack for that

 

Toney would finish the fight but lose on points. If in trouble in the later rounds, Toney would switch to a survival/defensive mode.

 

For me it's Frazier. The key is relentless but smart aggression by him.
While Toney was brilliant at countering, and riding punches, he didn't
have great foot speed, or, the overwhelming physicality of a Foreman
for example, so pushing Frazier off wouldn't work for him.
Frazier wouldn't be one dimensional, he'd hit whatever is available.
He wouldn't be waiting on the perfect shot, his activity would eventually
create one.
Toney's sides, hips, thighs , shoulders, and arms all would be targeted ,
all of the punishment designed to wear him down.

By seven -eight rds, that type of battering would seriously diminish
Toney's ability to counter, forcing him into survival mode.
Toney could survive a 12rd fight, but he'd be the clear loser
of the decision.
15 rds? Frazier smokes him, forces the ref to stop the fight.

 

James does not slip right hands, he rolls them.

Big difference.

 

And James had very good foot speed.

With his football injury, he couldn't use it at heavyweight. Too much weight for his ankle to handle.

He was fast enough to stay with Nunn before knocking him out doe.

 

Toney did well against big lunks who loaded up their shots. Toney would slip and roll with the shots and then make the other guy pay.

While I think Frazier is overrated on this forum, he is every kind of wrong for Toney. Frazier is mobile, relatively fast and with a high workrate. He hits hard without having to signal his punches with a disco show. He doesn't get off balance like some of the plodders Toney fed off of.

I think Toney might give a decent account of himself at the start but I have no doubt that by the end he's losing a UD or possibly getting worn out and knocked out by Frazier's pace.

 

He fought every second of the three minute round. No place for Toney to take a breath and reset. And the counter opportunities weren't often enough.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not - consider this please Seamus after Tiberi… who? wasn’t mulched trying to get busy and stay on top of Toney? That became the plan but it was never repeated. Consider he was also lost after being on a bi-monthly to monthly stretch of fellas like Nunn, McCallum and Johnson his weight was creeping up on him, his active schedule was to keep it down but I think it burnt him out mentally and physically, busy greats lose to guys they shouldn’t sometimes.
Now consider Jirov he was a 200lber, incredible shape, one of the busiest fighters I’ve ever seen he fought all three minutes and the pace didn’t bother Toney, Samuel Peters power didn’t bother Toney much - the strength of Ol man Holyfield didn't mean anything… you say the opportunities weren’t there? When you throw your hook the way Frazier did it gets wide off the front foot, it kills your right because you aren’t shifting the weight, Toney could get his right inside it easy, all he had to do was find Fraziers “trigger” the range and he’d get it in, there are counters for the uppercuts all night when you hover over your front foot leaning at the waist, when you square up on the inside with James and lean in he will rake your body or he will whip both uppercuts down the middle, if he thought ahead with how Frazier stands inside he could get his head on JF’s left shoulder (chest region) up close and now all Joe would have is a dead right uppercut to negotiate with inside, they aren’t even far away in size, James was boiled down to the bone a natural 200lber just like Joe who might I add looked smaller then JT at the same weight.

Resident coaches what do you think of meh breakdown?
@Pat M
@Rockin1
@Saintpat
@greynotsoold

 

The issue is Joe threw a ton of right hands to the body. A ton. Rarely the head and that was usually his short right uppercuts on the inside. Go watch more Frazier fights---that right hand was strictly a body shot & that is far more difficult for Toney to absorb and counter than the right hand lead guys he loved to counter > giving them his shoulder.