James Toney. Under-rated?

I will concluding my posting in this thread by revising my original post: On this forum he seems more underrated than overrated.

Yes, there's a tendency sometimes to excuse his poorer performances with his lackning dedication, which is not a viably excuse for a pro. But no one that I've seen rank him top 10 or something similiraly unreasonable.

Yet the critizism he gets is of the kind usually reserver for "mainstream media darlings" like SRL and Ali. "He wasn't defensively skilled at MW, beating contenders around 250 lbs and being a highly ranked at HW is nothing special for a 5'10 former MW in his mid-late 30's, and he also lost a lot when around 40, and his 30-40 lbs of extra fat made him as big as them anyhow etc."

 

"Wins and loses"? He lost all of his big fights at 154 and up except Moore and Barkley. Shot Cuevas and some French guy were not big wins.

 

Whatever you say...:roll:

 

Byrd has consistently stressed that he is not really a heavyweight.
He was in the middleweight class in the 1992 Olympics. He was 21 years old at the time.

James Toney looked well within in the range of a fit heavyweight at 217 against Holyfield too.

If you want to talk about Chris Byrd's extra 4 inches with height on Toney, you need to acknowledge the fact that he fought 'quality heavyweights' that were 4 inches taller than the ones Toney fought.
I don't think Toney fought any HW over 6'3, the best ones he fought were 6'2. I'm not convinced Sam Peter was even that, tbh.

 

But no one actually said that.
It is the typical method of this forum, to pull out some points you disagree with, exaggerate and distort them, and claim people have some sort of "issue" with a fighter for giving a more critical appraisal than yourself.

 

Nice post!

 

I think Toney is overrated and underrated. His greatness is overrated. He was like a lot of fighters who are sort of all over the map. He just did not have the mentality of a great fighter. Phoning in a LOT of performances and showing up fat as a pig with a neck that looked like a pack of hotdogs. Its no mystery why the guy spent seven or eight years of his prime doing almost nothing important in the sport. He simply lacked dedication. Thats as much of a flaw in a fighter as having a weak chin, bad stamina, or bad footwork. Even his best runs were pretty lackluster. He came from way behind against Nunn to win and then I thought he lost to Johnson, McCallum, and Tiberi in three of his first four defenses. His rematch with McCallum was also very close with McCallum outlanding Toney by 100 punches but still coming up short in a boring fight in which Toney looked like he didnt even care. He headed into the Jones fight as one of the P4P best in the world but he garnered that rep off those gifts and close decisions and a couple of wins over rapidly fading guys like Barkley and Williams. He was dominated by Jones and then lost his next fight to 14-0 Montell Griffin, a middling LHW. At this point Toney treaded water for years showing up for fights disinterested and often out of shape including showing up four pounds over the contracted weight for the mediocre Thadzi and losing. He finally started to get some good press again with his stoppage over Washington but Washington had won just one of his last 5 fights. He used this win to get more TV dates which boosted him to a shot at Jirov. Toney won a great fight against Jirov but it was close until the last round. Credit to him though, just like against Nunn he pulled it out. He then had an all steroid showdown with an ancient Evander Holyfield and I cant really give him much credit for this win. Holyfield should have been retired by this point. You could argue that Holyfield didnt deserve any of the wins or draws he had gotten in the last four years. He used steroids to beat Ruiz which got changes to a NC. After that Toney got a gift against Hasim Rahman that I thought Rahman clearly won. He used a headbutt to beat Rahman in the rematch which got changed to a NC. He lost twice to Peter who was nothing special. He got a gift against Oquendo. He used steroids to beat Batchelor but he got to keep that win because Batchelor used as well. Im not really trying to run him down because he accomplished a lot but he was very hot and cold, very uninspired on a regular basis, and his record looks better than it was because he got a lot of breaks for some reason. In that regard hes overrated. I dont think hed match up well with a lot of all time greats because of his style limitations and inconsistency. Style wise he had a lot of boogaboos: speed, movement, high workrate, etc. He was great against guys that he could be lazy against, laying back and making them come to him so he could chew them up with counters but he could be pretty mediocre against other styles. Where I think hes underrated is that his skills and toughness, when he was focused and goal oriented were tremendous. A lot of people look at the first part of my post as why the second part should be rejected but if Toney showed up motivated, in shape, and determined he was going to be a tough night. Thats why he is often underrated but unfortunately for Toney and us as fans those nights he showed up like that were relatively few as he opted to cut so many corners.

 

Peter had a huge wingspan though.

 

I can see your first point but dominating a weight class is not a condition to become an ATG.For instance which weight class did Hearns dominate ?

I do not see your 2nd point.But enough has been said on that subject.
.Apparently, you are not willing to put things into perspective.

 

That is not really relevant for determining Toney's ATG status.Byrd deserves credit for competing with the big men but he only had a heavyweight career, he is not even HOF worthy in my opinion.

Toney on the other hand fought a large part of his career in the lower weight classes and won titles there.Then after a long career, he decided to move up to heavyweight at age 35 and as a 5ft10 middleweight.So it is all the circumstances one has to take into account.

 

That's true.

 

I think he's underrated for his accomplishments. Dude made it through nearly 100 fights without ever being stopped and beat guys like Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Charles Williams, Reggie Johnson, Doug Dewitt, Iran Barkley and a few others.. Definitely one of the best fighters of the last 35 years.

 

Really? It seemed to matter to you somewhat, back on page 3...

As it happens, the point I was making about dominance over a division, from the beginning, was more aimed at your post from which the above statement came. In particular, on what you believe to be a close comparison between Duran and Toney's career, leading you to infer that Toney must therefore be an ATG.

I didn't draw an absolute and singular correlation between dominance over a single weight division and a rating as an All-Time Great; not even in my previous post that you've responded to. There are a lot of factors to consider in making that kind of assessment.

My previous post has given a perspective, based on facts.


Here's your "perspective", based on ... ... ... not facts...

You've implied that all those opponents you list in "Toney's body of work at heavyweight" represent Wins. The truth is they were not, regardless of how you scored them.

 

I have given you the facts for putting Toney's performances into perspective multiple times being : being a former middleweight, his advanced age, small height and accomplishing something only very few fighters did.You are simply unwilling to accept this.I am not seing the point you are trying to make by constantly critzising Toney's record as a heavyweight, had these been all wins or stronger opponents, Toney should have been ranked much higher as an ATG in my opinion.


Like the other poster I also have to conclude: In my view Toney is rather underrated than overrated.He has a very strong resume,old school skills and mentality, never stopped in 90 fights and did put on a decent heavyweight run which is an absolute rarety for a middleweight.

 

What all this "old school mentality" bull**** about Toney??? "Old school" fighters didnt show up on a regular basis out of shape and disinterested. If they did they got fined and banned. Toney was decidedly new school in his lazy ass lack of regard for the paying customers. God I hunger for the days when fighters got tossed out of the ring, refused pay, and banned for doing less than half the **** Toney made a career of. This sport would be in a lot better place.