James Toney. Under-rated?

The ranking are what they are which is an extremely respected set of ratings. They are often brought up in this forum quite conclusively in debates.

I brought them up rather than debate endlessly when it's all been done for me via these ratings. I am going to go wth them over an interest poster most times, tho not every single time. In this case i will as they are consistent over a long period of time. Such consistently high ratings over that many years is extremely conclusive for mine.

I didn't answer as i have little invested interest in Toney.

Since lets have a closer look without straining to be as negative as we can possibly be -

With two draws Holyfield lost 3 of his last seven, which certainly sounds better than only winning 2 of his last 7.

So we've got the best Heavyweight on the planet, Lennox Lewis twice, at the start and end of 99. Holyfield fought quite well while being past prime. Prior to this fight he'd won 5 on the trot including Tyson x 2 and Moorer.

Then thru 2000-2001 we have a trilogy with Ruiz all for the WBA title. Ruiz was on a modest 11 fight win streak.

In the 2000 end of year Ring ratings Holyfield was 4. End of year 2001 Holyfield was 6 and Ruiz 7. 2002 found Holyfield 4 and Ruiz 5.

So we have a split trilogy of two fighters comfortably inside the top 10.

So nothing tragic in those 5 fights of the 7.

Then we have a win over Rahman in 2002 who at the end of 2001 was ranked 5th best in the world after splitting 2 bouts with Lewis before fighting Holyfield. So a good win over a top 5 opponent.

Then we have a decision loss to Byrd at the end of 2002. At the end of 2001 Byrd was rated 4th best in the world, at the end of 2002 3rd. Certainly no disgrace.

So when opened up Holyfield, tho well past his best, was still a high quality heavyweight. Taking away the name Holyfield and who he'd once been and going strictly on performance we have a heavyweight well inside the top 10.

What Toney actually did that was notable was get him out of there. Holyfield had not been stopped in 8 years! He was never stopped again despite fghting on and on and on.

Toney was the only one to stop him in a 16 year stretch.

So the win over Holyfield is a very good solid win over a top 5-6 Heavyweight at that very time.

Was Holyfield at his finest? No-where near it, not even remotely close. Was he still top 10? Easily.

 

Yes, James Toney is severly underrated here! He's easily one of the top 10, if not top 5, ATGs these past 30 years. Maybe even top 10 ATG of all-time.

And I know my assessment might seem biased to many, but keep in mind that part of what is valued in a fighters body of work is always subjective to each and every boxing fan. If there was a single standard to evaluate boxers, there would be no need for these discussions here - there was no need for this forum!

There are a lot of negatives about Toney. The PEDs, the lack of dedication and discipline, the disgraceful performances he had, especially these last years... all of which hurt his legacy. But I will maintain that he's earned a very high ATG rank. Because only a handful of fighters in the history of the sport have done, or could have done, what Toney has achieved in his career.

During his MW and SMW prime in 1991-1994, Toney had 23 fights in just 4 years! That's an average of nearly 6 fights a year. One fight every 2 months. That is something unheard of for any top fighter these days, and even in the early 90s it was very exceptional. And he faced 3 ATGs (Roy Jones, McCallum, Michael Nunn) and 3 HOFers (Iran Barkley, Charles Williams, Reggie Johnson) during that short time. One of the ATGs he faced twice (McCallum). He faced Jones, Nunn and Johnson at their very peaks, and the others close to their primes. Yes, he had some close calls (Tiberi, Johnson), the draw with McCallum, and the loss to Jones, but you have to put that into perspective... name me another fighter, ever, that would have run through that list of opponents without a couple close calls and probably at least one loss? And I tell you something more: the version of Jones that Toney faced in 1994, that was just superman. I think that version of Jones would have beaten about any MW or SMW these last 30 years, and probably he'd beaten Hagler too.

So that's why Toneys 1991-1994 run alone is already severely underrated, and that run alone made him an ATG. Not many fighters in the history of the sport, not even the old-timers, could have achieved that.

Than add to that his comeback at CW and HW, where he faced another ATG (Holyfield, although past his best but still a top5 HW), and a HOFer at his peak (Jirov). Jirov really was a beast when he faced Toney, and Toney dominated and dropped Holyfield like no other fighter ever had before or after - not Lennox Lewis, and not the giant Valuev 5 full years after the Toney fight. OK, Bowe did stop Holyfield too in their 3rd fight, but only after going life and death with him. Toney was the only guy to ever dominate Holyfield.

So what other natural SMWs in their mid- to late 30s could have achieved that, after a long and taxing career? Again, not many. Maybe a handful in the history of the sport. This comeback promoted Toney in the ATG ranks. And it's worth more than Jones one-off stunt at HW against Ruiz.

After that, Toney, despite his obvious disadvantages in size, held his own for years with about all the name HWs in the divison at that time (except for the Klitschkos, who wanted no part of him. It has to be noted that Toney has sparred both Klitschkos during his LHW days and held his own by all accounts. The Klitschkos were at the beginnig of their pro careers while Toney was already a verteran by that time). Due only to his sheer toughness and skills. What other former MWs/SMW could have done that? Roy Jones didn't do that, no. Could Hagler have done it? Bernard Hopkins? Calzaghe? Maybe yes, but they didn't and if you're being honest they probably wouldn't have lasted at HW like Toney did.
So even if these HW years weren't crowned with a major title and included some losses and disappointing performances (and also some bad luck- Sam Peter I, Rahman II), I think as a whole Toneys HW run further elevated his ATG status.

In conclusion, Toney was a very special fighter who did things that only a handful of other fighters in the history of the sport did or could have done. 90 fights from MW up to HW without a stoppage loss. There are also things that Toney didn't do, like unify the titles in a divison, or stay dominant for a longer period of time - but there is no standard measuring stick to assess his career. He stands outside of these standard evaluations, as he simply is no standard fighter. He is exceptional, and he never gave a damn about the politics of the sport or his legacy, but he just wanted to step into the ring and fight whoever was available - be it an ATG or a club fighter, it didn't matter. And if you value these accomplishments that I have described before, you just have to put the man into any top 10 ATG list. If you don't, well... you still have to give the man his credit and admit he's an ATG, if further down the list, due to what he achieved during his prime at MW and SMW, when he was the universally recognized #2 P4P fighter behind JCC in a strong era.

 

I'm not trying to derail your post and appreciate your time and thoughts but you should have a look at the era of the likes of Ezzard Charles and co. It's insane how often they fought and who against.

 

Thank you for your suggestion.

I know that era, though not as well as the 90s or 2000s era, and I know that many of these old-timers had crazy schedules! Ezzard Charles is one of these handful guys that I think did what Toney has done, even more, and I would place him ahead of Toney in the ATG rankings. Some others too, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Archie Moore...

Incidentally, Ezzard Charles has always been Toneys role model, and Toney always insisted on being an old-school fighter, in a modern era.

That's why Toney is so special, he's an old-school fighter in a modern era. That's why the standard measuring stick can't be applied to his career. And that's why I put him into - my very own - top five ATG list - these 30 last years.

 

Good stuff. Bill Miller did a great job with him hence his old school style. It was a shame Toney got a bit big headed and stopped listening to him mid career.

 

Thanks for responding and giving a qualified answer. You make some good points - not all of which I agree with.

The rankings should not be blindly accepted as gospel but should be something we can rely on as a gauge. I often do but I’m also prepared to be called out on their use and have been, in discussions I’ve had in the past, when some details behind the rankings seemed relevant to the strength of a given belief.

I think this is one such case - not because Toney doesn’t deserve credit for competing at Heavyweight and for his win - he does - but it is oftentimes, on account of his Holyfield stoppage, that his achievements at HW are overstated. He wasn’t the first though. Ruiz probably has a far greater claim to inflating his HW status, on the back of Holyfield - all of this courtesy of Don King.


To be fair, my argument here is linked to a broader matter and view I have of the Heavyweight scene, at the time, of which I shan’t go into detail here. Suffice to say that, the idea that I believe Holyfield was spent, post-Lewis II, is not one I've cultivated over the course of this thread. I suspected he'd had his day, after Ruiz I, and became convinced he was completely done by the end of their trilogy. The Ruiz trilogy itself and Holyfield’s subsequent IBF title shot against Byrd were products of Don King. Period.

I don't think it's “straining to be negative” by stating the facts as Holyfield only having two wins in seven fights, even if there were Draws involved. Had I been seeking to wring every ounce of leverage, for the sake of argument, I’m sure I could have mentioned the controversy over both Lewis I and Ruiz I, which could conceivably of had Holyfield going 1-5-1 over the same period (Incidentally, we are discussing a timeframe of four years; a long time in Boxing, especially if this slump began when you were 36 years old).


So, while you might consider it a solid win on the strength of your belief that Holyfield was a -Top-10 HW, at that time, I see it as a well-timed bout for Toney, for which he deserves some credit, just for his ability to compete at heavyweight. But I see the bout itself as having flattered to deceive - for the reasons I’ve previously given. The stoppage was nothing spectacular but, nonetheless, adds additional prestige, on paper. I can see why people think otherwise and attach a good deal of acclaim to the win, on Toney’s behalf - I’m just not one of them.

 

No worries MM, appreciate you taking the time. As i said i don't have much invested in Toney and won't go back and forth. I put about all the interest i have into the Holyfield's value as a win chapters.

A simple sum up for me is that he is underrated overall in this forum and overrated in the General section.

 

:good

 

After going to this 13n page threat - I'll have to agree with FROST and THE BLADE 2: regardless of Toney's inconsistencies in some of the 5 weight classes he was competing in, Toney should be ranged among the ATG of this sport! No other athlete, no matter what era in boxing, succeeded in competing at an elite level from 160-200+ pounds (whether in shape or not). Toney's talent made him special even at hw, a weight class in which he clearly did not belong into. Also, in my book at least, Toney's losses at a later stage of his career do little damage to his reputation: most ATG had them, perfect records do not equal an ATG status...


The only thing working against Toney's ATG are the 2 positiv PED tests. While I tend to believe that most modern day boxers are users, no other ATG got tested TWICE in recent years. In retrospective, this clearly is the dark spot in his career much more than weight issues and poor performances.

 

Roy Jones Jr says hello. His Heavyweight win over a 200+ fighter absolutely puts him in this imo even if a one off.

 

The past 30 years (1986 to 2016) has given us fighters such as :
Evander Holyfield
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya
Roy Jones Jr.
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Manny Pacquiao
Shane Mosley
Bernard Hopkins
Felix Trinidad
Erik Morales
Mike Tyson
Marco Antonio Barrera
Juan Manuel Marquez
Ricaro Lopez

etc.

 

How can you compare a nobody like Martin to a career MW who ATE his way up to HW and STILL won a main belt? Idiot.

 

Perhaps you're the idiot. You have an issue with me refering to James Toney as a "heavyweight contender". That's what he was. To his credit.
I was not comparing Charles Martin to James Toney, I was illustrating why holding a "main strap" does not necessarily put a man on a higher level than a contender. In fact, I explicitly say Martin will be lucky if he's remembered as a contender.

 

When did toney win a main belt at hw???? He took on one of the weakest paper champs in history and had to cheat on peds to win himself nothing more than a no contest.

 

I'm guessing that's what he was refering to.
I don't take Ruiz seriously as a title-holder either.