James Toney vs Evander Holyfield Thoughts

The version of Holyfield that Toney beat, wasn't this the same holyfield who got shutout by B level Larry Donald?

 

When Holyfield started fighting more flat footed and got slower, he really had to be matched carefully. He did great against fighters who stood right in front of him and came to him, but the movers could make him look bad. Donald was a better version Vaughn Bean, who also managed to run from Holyfield all night and make him look bad in spots. Whoever was doing his matchmaking once he lost the titles was an idiot.
He should have never fought guys like Byrd, Donald, and Toney or anyone that was going to give him trouble with movement. I was suprised he managed to get past Fres Oquendo. He could beat guys like Savarese, or Rahman because they stood right in front him.

 

Toney beating Holyfield in impressive fashion is like someone beating Toney now. Holyfield has been well washed up since the Lewis fights despite some decent efforts, usually because of the opponent's lack of ability rather than the brilliance of old Holyfield.

 

No , because in addition to his age Toney is a miniature HW as you know , which could never be claimed about Holyfield , anyone who disagrees , I already have some pics of their fight online here and I can dig it for them and post them for proof.

 

It was a situation in which it showed Holyfield should not have been fighting anymore (the crumbling manner in which he wilted was a far cry from his usual war-cries when hurt) and that Toney is an effective fighter at heavyweight when in decent condition.

Toney's brilliant observation over his hunched left shoulder have always had opponents missing and he put his punches together deliciously in this one, all the while threading through his breaks and mind games.

As good as Toney is at picking opponents apart, a fitter Holyfield from the early 90's would have been all over him and suffocated James in a unanimous decision.

 

Toney took plenty of return. Rewatch the fight with the volume down; i did it a few months ago. Not a bad fight actually, despite both being in horrendous condition. Toney is hurt and staggering in 4 rounds... whenever Peter lands, there is silence, when Toney lands a flicking jab, the Showtime cast get instant hardons and scream "WOW GREAT LEFT HAND BY TONEY!!". It's almost as sad as the commentary on Ali vs Foreman.

 

Showtime are awful for embarassingly partisan commentary. Their calling of Chavez/Whitaker was laughable; they had the fight even after 10. I also think my copy of Cotto/Mosley may have been Showtime - it's just as biased for Cotto.

 

I agree, Holyfields match making during this period was awful. The only fighter who has been matched as poorly is Pavlik. The version of Holyfield from 1990-1994 would wear James Toneys ass out.

 

The Oquendo win is still a mite controversial too.

But Fast Fres, I think the evidence is clearly there to support this, has a style that most judges just don't like. He's had the shaft more times than Jenna Jameson.

It was close, Holy had the knockdown in the 1st, so he got the nod.

As for Holy-Toney, Toney never looked as sharp as this at heavyweight again because he was never in the same shape. Holyfield wasn't terrible; he won the first and was competative for another three or so, but Toney was just peppering him with so many shots and counters Evander was getting worn down.

This is also the fight which finally saw the end of the Holyfield-Don Turner partnership.

 

Holy was a year older against Donald, a year before Toney he won a few rounds losing to Byrd, the year before that he was beating Rahman and drawing with Ruiz. So a slow decline year on year really

 

So Toney NEVER did any of that to guys his own size (except a 4th round stoppage of 24-0 Tim Littles at 168... and he posted a sensational 1-punch KO of a far bigger man, Jason Robinson)?

But neither did Pernell Whitaker or Floyd Mayweather Jr. Like those two, the middleweight Toney was a completely different type of fighter to the heavyweight Tyson, so the fact that Toney never blitzed guys early doesn't mean much, he was still an incredibly effective fighter.

Toney's TKO over 36-0 p4p ranked Michael Nunn is way better than any win on Tyson's resume. I'd argue that his win over Jirov and the "draw" (a close but clear win for JT) in the 1st McCallum fight top Mike's best win as well.

If you think Toney takes "a lot" of punches, check the Compubox stats for his fights, his numbers don't lie. Even in the "very close" fight with Jirov, Toney won a landslide via Compubox because the punches Jirov looked to be landing were in fact being blocked and slipped, whereas Toney's shots were landing clean, crisp and bang on the money.

All of his fights are damn close? He did have many close fights, as did many other fighters who focused on defence, and who weren't blessed with Julian Jackson-esque power. But he had many, many dominant victories as well. Toney dominated Iran Barkley (when Barkley was favourite to win) and heavyweight Dominick Guinn, and he stopped some very good comp including Michael Nunn, Doug DeWitt, Prince Charles Williams, Tim Littles, Jason Robinson, and of course Evander Holyfield. Yes he had a couple of close fights with lesser fighters like Drake Thadzi and Dave Tiberi, but many, many top fighters have had similar nights. Joe Calzaghe had to go to an SD with Robin Reid, Bernard Hopkins posted a draw with Segundo Mercado, these things happen over the course of a long career.

 

:huh Different fight to the one I was watching then. I didn't see Toney visibly hurt at any point, nor did I see him shipping any prolonged punishment, nor did I see him getting knocked over the ring. Of course Peter's physicality and aggression meant that he was the one forcing the action, and he did land some clubbing punches that had an impact, but his work was not effective overall, Toney weathered it and and toughed it out, and produced the cleaner shots and the better boxing, and I think he won the fight clearly, 2 or 3 points up as far as I can recall. Toney was his usual defiant and outspoken self in the post-fight interview in the ring, he did not look to be suffering any major after-effects whatsoever. By the time of the next fight, he had let his physical condition deteriorate even further, to the point where his natural talent was no longer enough to compensate for his shocking condition - that was the difference, it was not that Peter had given him a beating in the first fight, that simply did not happen at all, that's bull****.

 

By the way (I've spent my time on this thread so far defending Toney against what I believe are unfair and ill-informed criticisms), my own opinion on the issue at hand is that James's win over Holyfield is not really worth much. Holyfield looked too far gone for the win to have any serious merit, above mere name recognition. Toney showed lovely skills, and it's always admirable for a former middleweight to post a win at heavyweight, but Holyfield looked like a ghost to me, and even as a Toney fan I can't place much stock in it.

 

I'd say thats certainly up for debate, agree with most of your post though

 

Is it up for debate? I can't see any debate on the issue myself. Toney's win over Nunn is miles ahead of Tyson's best win, miles. The middleweight Nunn was a far, far better fighter than the best heavyweight that Tyson beat.