James Toney vs Gennady Golovkin : at 160

PEDS may give a great fighter the edge over another great fighter who isn't using... But PEDS will not turn a good fighter into a great fighter.. See Jones-Hall for example.

 

Peril,

I don't disagree with any of what you've written above. But you initially said that with PEDS, GGG would have had a nightmare with Toney, and without them, he'd have beaten him comfortably.

So despite what you've wrote above, that is obviously a gross exaggeration.

I've no problem with you saying you think GGG could have beaten Toney. The only issue I have, is where you've made reference to the Tiberi fight. In the grand scheme of things, I don't really think it's a factor.

 

Peril,

He wasn't comfortable at the weight, because he'd ballooned up to a ridiculous size before the fight was signed, and found himself in a race against time to lose it.

It's easy for you to say that though. Realistically, fighting every two months would take it's toll on anyone.

 

I simply asked if you thought McCallum was at his prime when he fought Toney. The rest is purely your speculation, I just wanted to hear your opinion.

I brought up Tiberi to show that Toney wasn't an invincible god at 160. Tiberi beat Toney, but other guys at 160 gave him all he could handle as well, if you remember his earlier career. Discipline or not, we have facts to operate with.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on his appearance at 160, I saw a man that was struggling to make weight. And his head did get larger as he got older (It does not grow as we age by the way).

If you think that was his natural weight, I would like to ask you if you thought 126 is a natural weight for Walters. Just curious.

Also, Golovkin is over 30 years of age and fighting at 160 lbs. This means that 160 is his natural weight as he has matured already. Toney at 160 when he was in his 20s only supports my claim that he was by no means a natural 160 lb fighter.

 

I claim, with 100% confidence, that PEDs can make a loss into a win, unless the skill disparity between fighters is astronomical. Boxing is an intricate sport that contains a myriad of factors contributing to win or loss. Being able to shrug off a particularly hard punch, or finding energy for a spurt in 12th round can make all the difference in the world. Remember Toney's rally in 11th round, that famous KO that made him fighter of the year?

 

Golovking is 33, so no. He is already a mature man that comfortably fits into 160.

Toney was in his 20s barely squeezing into 160. Not the same thing.

 

I have never used anything illegal, although I researched HGH extensively. I also know pro athletes use it and claim it they are clean.

The story of him being successful purely because of his skills would have a lot more credibility if his win against John Ruiz wasn't erased due to steroid use.

 

I'm not saying they don't make a difference. But your statement was still a gross exaggeration.

PEDS may have given Toney advantages. But he wasn't a KO artist. He won his fights on skill. PEDS wouldn't have affected his balance, timing, reflexes, his shoulder roll, and his in fighting and counter punching abilities.

It seems silly to suggest that GGG would have beaten him comfortably had he not taken them.

Also, you don't know if he took them at MW, so you can't imply that he used against Nunn and that's what got him the win.

 

A known side effect of steroid use is rapid weight gain in between cycles.

Also, fighting every two months does have an affect, but he was not fighting top, or even mid-level opposition many a time. You could consider them stay-busy fights, without a proper camp.

 

Look, the balco fiasco showed us something. Invincible monsters like Shane Mosley and Roy Jones suddenly did not look so great. We never know what JT would look like had he been clean his whole career. I agree with you that his boxing skills would still be there, but would his insane punch resistance stay as well? Would his stamina be there?

 

Jones after his failed test for a fat burner still won a version of the hw title he and Mosley are nothing alike ..

 

You just wrote: "We have facts to operate with". Then you go on to talk about JT using drugs at middleweight.:roll: Enough said

 

Can't believe this is up for discussion Toney beats him by a clinic

 

Fact is, for his historic feat, fighting for the HW title, he tested positive for steroids.

You have to admit that it puts a taint on his entire career. I am obviously speculating, there is no proof he took PEDs at 160. But, seeing how the testing was a joke back then, and he did test positive in a very important fight, I'd say its not outlandish to suggest he might not have been clean early on as well.