James Toney vs Gennady Golovkin : at 160

Is it resonable to say that "prime" is the same thing as the best performence in memory from an inconsistent fighter? If Toney was inconsistent during his best years, then beating him when he was off his game was beating the prime version IMO.

A picky remark perhaps, but here on ESB wins tend to be questioned unless the opponent was putting in his best performence ever, was unable to land a single punch and in fact was Muhammed Ali transported through time. You know the drill.

 

I am not sure when Toney's first tests were, but I would be surprised if he was not using at MW and SMW.

 

well said. it's always a sign of a lame argument if you resort to speculation about PEDS in a mythical match-up.

 

I like Toney here, provided he comes in good (or decent) shape and doesn't have an awful night like he did against Dave Tiberi.

Toney had some troubles at 160, needing to rally to beat Michael Nunn, but very few MWs would NOT have issues with Michael Nunn. That also gets exaggerated at times, Nunn was winning, but Toney had been coming on and had won the last 2-3 rounds before the 11th. Toney was actually hurt when he was dropped by Reggie Johnson, but he came back strong and I felt he won a close but clear decision, 115-112. It speaks to Toney's opposition level and activity than about 6 weeks after upsetting a top p4p fighter in Nunn, he defended against a solid contender in Reggie Johnson, who was a better fighter than anyone GGG had ever faced.

Toney actually fought better when he didn't get the win over McCallum than when he did. He looked great in the first fight which was ruled a draw. That was simply a brilliant technical display of skills on both sides. I thought Toney won the first fight 116-112 and lost the rematch 114-113.

Toney had an iron chin, but he did get legitimately hurt when Johnson dropped him. But I doubt GGG lands that shot (keep in mind his punches come from different angles than the southpaw Johnson). GGG has defensive flaws that I think Toney would exploit. Maybe GGG fought a little more reckless against Willie Monroe than he would against Toney, but the defensive flaws are there regardless.

GGG is methodical and patient in his attack, and doesn't throw aimless punches for the sake of being active. So it's not like he'd throw dumb punches and Toney would just counter these dumb punches. But I think he will get caught with good counters, and Toney's quick hands and good jab will favor Toney in the center of the ring, or when Toney wants to lead.

Toney by clear decision.

 

Toney had one gift at 160, against Tiberi. I personally thought he lost the McCallum rematch by a point, but it was very close and I can't call it a "gift".

Toney fought very good opposition at 160. In just 15 months, he fought Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum twice. His first defense after beating Nunn was against a solid contender in Reggie Johnson, just 6 weeks later. That's pretty impressive. More than pretty impressive actually.

 

You could well be right.

My question wasn't asked in a sarcastic way or anything. It was a genuine question. But again, it's all speculation, and ideally, I'd prefer to discuss how a potential fight would have played out based on each fighters skills. But I do respect your theory, and again, you could be right.

Now another theory could be that he didn't take anything at the lower weights, as he arrogantly thought his skills alone could see him through. But when he hit HW in his mid 30's, he wanted every advantage possible, because the element of risk was much higher, due to fighting naturally bigger and stronger fighters. Now in my opinion, that is completely plausible

Now let's focus some more on your opinion.

Again, you think he definitely used at MW, and PEDS would have given him huge advantages. So let me ask you some logical questions:

1. If he was using all throughout his career, and PEDS would have given him such huge advantages, how do you account for his poor performances against the likes of Dave Tiberi, Roy Jones Jr, Drake Thadzi, and Montell Griffin etc?

2. Or did he only use them in certain fights?

3. If so, why?

These are logical questions to ask. Because if he was using his entire career, he'd have surely been on them for the Tiberi fight. So where were the advantages gained from PEDS there? He looked sharp in some fights and not in others. He's admitted that Tiberi should have gotten the decision, but then he was razor sharp against Barkley and Littles. So again, how do you explain that? Realistically, would he only have taken them for certain fights, or would he have taken them for every fight? Did he take them against Roy? If not, why?

Ha!

We could speculate for hours.


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Why are you saying that there was so little on the line at HW?

He was past his best, out of shape, and he was fighting way above his natural weight.

What about the potential health risks of fighting HW's in his mid to late 30's?

It's not out of the question that he'd only have used when he got to the HW division, due to being at a physical disadvantage against everyone he fought.

That theory is also based on logic/common sense.

 

I'd have loved to have seen him fight Wlad.

 

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3 facts that favour Toney imo:

1) Toney has got the best chin in the game. Toney has proven this by going from mw to hw without getting koed while facing fierce punching power
2) Toney's is a much better allrounder than GGG: MW version of Toney was able to handle a ring genius like McCallum while still being at the early stages of his career
3) MW version of Toney was a lot more disciplined than later in his career. At the time he was trained by one of the best Bill Miller.

 

I am doing pretty well, thanks for asking.:good

I guess there is no way to know for sure, but I highly doubt Toney all of a sudden decided to start roiding after becoming a fat ass.. In the 90's I don't think there was much testing, and if there was it was urine, the only sure way is random blood. I used to cheat urine tests after smoking heaps of weed and cocaine binges.atsch If I can do it I am sure a millionaire athlete can as well.

edit- was it urine tests Toney failed?:think

I have a hard time believing he wasn't using some kind of fat burning PEDs to drop weight, but that is only my opinion.

Regardless, he was a special talent.. I used to hate him when he was Roy's rival back in the day, but he has grown on me, I can't usually make it through one of his interviews without laughing, sometimes I feel subtitles to translate his incoherent rambling would be useful.:rofl