James Toney vs Gennady Golovkin : at 160

addicted, or simply could not compete without them. His biggest achievement was negated by being caught cheating. Roy Jones had a similar issue as well. I do not consider either of them to be legitimate clean athletes, along with Shane Mosley and many other legends of that time.

 

Rico brings an excellent point: We are comparing two fighters but not specifying the PED testing involved. I have no doubt that if the fight was in the 80s and 90s when Toney would get away with being on juice, he would turn GGG's life into a nightmare. But today, with the current improved PED testing, I think GGG wins comfortably on points, if he doesn't do anything silly like opening up on purpose to give us a "big dramma show".

 

In his early career, Toney came in under the limit for big fights. I don't know what his natural walking around weight was, but with more discipline it shouldn't have killed him to make MW/SMW.

GGG fights 3-4 fights per year, with 3 last year, and 2 so far this year. In the early 90's, Toney went through a period of fighting once every 2 months.

GGG may have beaten better guys than Tiberi, but again, that shouldn't really influence anyone's decision in regards to this thread. It would be like someone picking a fighter to beat Eubank based upon his fight against Ray Close.

 

Let's be real here.

Just how effective are PEDS to a boxer when he's in the ring?

Look at Toney's skill set.

You can't say that on PEDS he'd have caused GGG hell, but without them GGG would have won comfortably.

That's ridiculous and illogical.

PEDS can help a fighter train harder and recover quicker, and they can give a fighter a psychological boost.

But they don't magically effect a fighters skill set, that has been honed through years of hard work etc.

 

I've heard this argument many a time, usually from people that do not train themselves. PED can significantly improve endurance, allow a fighter to fit into a weight class he naturally would be too weakened at, recover quicker, have quicker reflexes, even take a harder punch (as a result of better training/recovery). Do not think of PED as simple muscle gainers that bodybuilders use, HGH is almost magical in what it can do, as is testosterone boosters. It is no wonder that Toney's head swelled up as it did, and he had such a massive gut. His whole appearance screams hormone abuse.

PS: I understand the infatuation with older fighters, and our tendency to glorify them due to us having grown up watching them fight. Yet I would not discount Genady in a fight with Toney because his skills are right up there. He is to offence what JT was to defence.

 

Look at Toney in the Roy Jones fight, arguably the most important fight of his career. He didn't look like he had an extra ounce to lose, and he certainly did not look comfortable at the weight (as he himself mentioned in an interview, saying weight loss was to blame for his poor performance). Do you think a natural 160 lb fighter goes up 8 lbs and still looks drained on the fight night?

Also, lets not forget just whom JT fought when he was fighting every couple of months GGG could fight guys like Larry Prather and Ricky Thomas on the same night and get two consecutive KO's.

 

It doesn't change the fact that Toney's resume @ 160 takes a HUGE dump all over Bumlovekin's.

 

Considering that Bumlovekin wanted a 164lb catchweight for Andre Ward, my guess is we'll never see the Triple Duck against a good fighter at a higher weightclass...

 

Ok you want to talk about Mc Callum now?

That version of Mc Callum was considered the best middleweight at the time. He only had one loss against Kalambay which he avenged. he had not lost in years. He was the favourite against Toney and 34 years old. He was far better than anybody GGG will ever face at middleweight.

Your arguments are silly. GGG and Mc Callum are 2 completely different fighters.Toney loves fighters like GGG who want to brawl (e.g Barkely, charles williams).


You are talking about the Toney that fought Tiberi. Stupid point. I told you do not need GGG to beat that version of Toney.

 

Agreed.

That being said, GGG is a very good fighter and great for boxing.I am a big fan of his. It is just that his posters are stupid as ****

Toney is of the best inside fighter ever, granit chin, and excellent counterpuncher. You do the maths that is just a bad matchup for GGG.

 

Nope, Toney wasn't a drained stick figure with a comically large head at MW. That's just something you want to make believe the newer boxing fans here who just know Toney as an obese HW. But your claims can be easily disproved by looking at the fights from that era. They can be found on youtube, as well as plenty of photos of a young Toney on the internet.

Toney always had a rather big head, not comically large though, as you claim, and he didn't look like a stick figure either. He looked like a natural, strong and athletic MW. Thus that was his natural weight division at that time. We must remember that Toney was still in his early 20s when he fought at MW, later his body grew into being a natural SMW, which is perfectly normal.

And any weight divisions beyond SMW that Toney fought in was simply due to him being undisciplined, and his lack of discipline was also the cause why he sometimes struggled to make the MW or SMW limit (he eventually also struggled to make the LHW and CW limits...).

 

Actually, Golovkin and young MW Toney have about the same physique, size and reach, so according to your logic GGG is a drained stick figure and a light heavyweight draining himself to be a middleweight. Is that correct?

 

So your point is that Toney (along with a whole bunch of other successful fighters) must have been using PEDs during the late 80s and 90s simply because the drug-testing in boxing wasn't as strict as it is today? (which is a questionable claim in itself, seen as the state athletic commissions are just as corrupt these days as they have ever been and that PEDs have evolved and are harder to detect nowadays than in the 80s and 90s).

Sounds to me like speculations made up to suit your (poorly) hidden agenda...
-> 80s and 90s MWs cheaters, GGG clean, therefore GGG > 80s and 90s MWs

Face it, GGG has a loooong way to go to come close to what Toney, Mc Callum, Nunn etc... achieved at MW.

 

You are making your arguments sound like perfectly sound scientific facts here.... but the truth is that they don't hold water, they're nothing more than your personal opinion. It's not even an educated guess. And you are contradicting yourself.

First you say that Toneys head is 'comically large' at MW, at the beginning of his boxing career. Now you claim that his head has swelled up due to him using PEDs. What is it then? It doesn't make sense at all... But claiming that Toney (and others) used PEDs in order to be successful just fits your agenda perfectly, so you're just putting that out there, right?

Toney has always been successful because of his boxing skills, both natural and learned. From MW up to HW. He's never been successful because of his athleticism, which even at MW and SMW was only average at best (for a professional athlete of course).

PS: I have trained myself, but never used PEDs. And I can assure you that it's perfectly possible to be a successful athlete without using PEDs or HGH or whatever, believe that or not. But you seem to be thinking otherwise, and from what you are writing here you seem to be talking out of personal experience my friend...

 

You could be right, but I honestly think Toney ate his way to HW.. But we do know for a fact, that steroids were not responsible for Toney's elite skill set, that allowed him to compete with naturally larger men, well beyond his peak.