James Toney vs Gerald Mclellan

I don't know where McClellan got the main part of the damage he had from , but if you notice then he started blinking weirdly as soon as in his first fight against Jackson if I remember correctly and was definitely already damaged goods against Benn. Had it wasn't for the criminally corrupt referee in the Benn fight , he would have still stopped Benn early though.

For your question about Toney I repeat : no fighter who could make 175lbs in his pro career in the entire history could stop Toney , with the only possible exception of Marchegiano , and it is only a possible exception not because Marchegiano couldn't make 175 , because he could , but rather because I am not that certain that even Marchegiano could stop Toney .

If Toney comes in out of shape or severely drained and McClellan is relatively not drained then Toney loses a decision .
If McClellan is drained and Toney is relatively not then Toney stops him late.
If both are at top shape then it is a very good fight which will last the distance and will be close , don't know who wins , but for me it doesn't matter in close fights .

 

I contend to this day it was that headbutt by accident from Benn in round 8 or 9 that caused the damage.... G-Man and his game went out the door after the clash of heads that benefitted Benn... I believe it was the butt that caused G-Man's major blood clot in his head.... However, by the time the butt occurred, Benn was well back in the fight after nearly being waxed in rd. 1...

Toney by 1995 was really too big for G-Man.... Toney also a defensive master would avoid G-Man's bombs, too.....

I see G-Man starting fast on Toney and having an early edge in points, but Toney finds his groove and begins to teach G-Man how to box....

TONEY!:hey

Fact is, Toney is an ATG fighter; G-Man is not....:bbb:deal

MR.BILL:hat


NOTE:

Dude's like "Mugabi and Jackson" are not in the same overall class as Toney....

 

You might be right about Jackson , but dudes like Mugabi are not in the same overall class as Jackson ..

 

I don't know............... Mugabi burned out early and Jackson spent too much time as # 2 or # 3 on Don King's PPV cards...... Jackson wallowed in the shadows as a champion...... That is why he still isn't in the IBHOF.... Too many defenses' on the undercard..... Blame King........

MR.BILL:hat

 

And there is a reason to that : his lack of quality .
Whomever decided about keeping him @ 154 knew that except of power Mugabi could not hang with fighters whom punch as hard .
Regarding what you wrote about Jackson it is not a sign of lack of greatness , just publicity .
Jackson really was a good fighter. A solid champion @ 2 divisions.
Unlike Mugabi , Jackson could have always easily make the 154 , but still was a force @ 160 , a sign of quality for me.
I also think that against some of Toney's opponents , Jackson could have done better.
Of course I agree that Toney was still better.

 

Yeah, but Jules Jackson fought them undercard title fights against many "forgetable" opponents.... Jackson never broke loose on his own.... He never was the sole star of a big event.... He never made huge bucks.... He was a good personality and puncher, but his chin and defense was suspect.... He had flaws..... J.J. might get into the IBHOF some year, but he'll always be sketchy---in a sense...... WORD!

MR.BILLbbb:hat

 

There are so many HOFs and ATGs that this could be true about them .
If that was your sole criteria then the end of your argument holds , but there are other criteria such as power , stamina , aggressiveness , etc.
According to the red Lennox Lewis , Joe Louis and Riddick Bowe are sketchy too , among many others.
Pernell Whitaker may have had what people call defense but defense was all he ever done , he never beat Ramirez and deserved his loss.
Jackson's defense wasn't that bad , he simply was more concerned about offense . But when things didn't go his way , he too knew how to retreat and defend himself , as he showed in his first fight against McClellan.

 

Yeah, but Jackson was waxed hard by G-Man in both fights... One fight went about 5 rds and the other was inside 1 rd..... G-Man ****ed him up---BAD!!

MR.BILLbbb

 

He gave McClellan quite a tough fight in the first one and don't forget McClellan was 7 years younger and much bigger.
Frazier was waxed even worse by Foreman (comparing Foreman-Frazier #1 to McClellan-Jackson #1) quite because of the same reasons.
So was Frazier Sketchy ?
Another thing : I don't know what's your take on Terry Norris deserving for HOF , but Jackson deserves it much more : he KOd the much younger Norris , he was a formidable champion in 2 weight classes in comparison to Norris' 1 and even this was not because he couldn't make the lower weight anymore .
And think that both of these facts above would have still held if he retired the same age Norris retired at which brings us to the third criteria : longevity . Jackson surpassed Norris according to that criteria too.
So Jackson was done injustice and Norris probably benefited of fighting in main events probably , what a criteria to decide greatness upon !
If Jackson retired the same age Norris did , he would have also had only 1 stoppage loss for his credit , to Norris' 4.

 

I hear all that, Franky.... I do............ BUT! Frazier, unlike Jackson, had the backing of the general public; Jackson did not..... Jackson's fame is still within the boxing world and only the boxing world.... Frazier's rep is Global....

My sister gives a full **** about boxing, but she knows about "Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson & Ray Leonard." She has no idea who Jules Jackson from the Virgin Islands is... Neither do my next door neighbors...... WORD!

MR.BILL:bbb

 

I don't understand this part. I'm curious what exactly you mean. The Benn vs McClellan fight would have been stopped early?

 

One thing's for sure, G-Man could not have blown out Toney like he did with the rest. Toney, even on his worst night, is just unstoppable, at MW as well as at SMW (and probably at the other divisions too). Granite chin and great defense. Toney would just not crumble before G-Mans power, so McClellans biggest asset would be gone.
So G-Man would have to settle for a points win instead, which was not his game. Toney would drag him in the deep waters for sure. I think G-Man could still win a decision against a weight-drained, weak Toney, but any halfways in shape version of Toney would weather the early storm, take over the fight and stop the G-Man late.

PS: I think Benn would have won the fight against G-Man regardless of that head butt or McClellans brain injury. Benn just got up from the KDs and stood up to McClellan, he would simply not go away

PS2: No question the G-Man was already damaged before the Benn fight - his many sparring wars with HWs at the Kronk did that. Brain damage comes more often from countless rounds of heavy sparring than from some pro fights. That's why it's important to take it easy in sparring and not go there full force

 

Toney by decision plus with his chin he ain't going to be stopped or ko'd but possibly dropped. He was arguably the best counterpuncher of his time and G-man's aggression would play into Toney's hands. It's still amazing to think a former MW moved up taking punches from huge punchers like Peter and not even going down legitimately(Toney was off balance in the Peter rematch so I don't count that).

 

Good post. Toney only was legitimately put on his ass only 1 single time in 80+ pro fights from MW to HW. By Reggie Johnson, who hurt him and gave him hell. Toney still rallied and won that fight. The Sam Peter and Roy Jones KDs were more pushes where Toney was off-balance, he wasn't hurt.